Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase


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    Default Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    Hello all,
    Posting here for general advice in my situation. I bought a used machine a few months ago and tested it and such before I bought it as best I could. The company I bought it from is a company that sells new and used CNC machines so it wasn't from a private seller in his garage or shop. A month of running aluminum and I notice spindle noise. Ugh I doubt I have recourse there but what really grinds my gears is that the seller stated the machine has 30" of travel in X when in fact the travel is limited to 24.5" in X. The spindle annoys me and is going to be costly, but the misrepresentation of the travel makes me angrier. I feel like a company should know what they have and how to look for it. At the time I didn't know how to fully use the machine and thought a reputable company (they have great reviews) would be able to tell something as common as x axis travel with accuracy. Anyways, this is in the bay area of CA and I am at a loss on what to do. I contacted them Friday but have yet to hear back and want to give them time to think on it, but I will not just go away. I am thinking I might have to take them to small claims court. What should I value the loss of 6" at? I know it's a huge amount cost wise on a new machine but how does one guage it on a used one? Maybe the full 5k court max is what I should ask or do I just bite the bullet and let them get away from the false advertising? Please advise.

    Sent from my LGLS996 using Tapatalk

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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    Just a few thoughts without passing judgment on either you or the dealer, but rather just pointing out a a few facts. As far as the spindle, it may have been just fine when you bought the machine, they are a maintenance item and require periodic service.

    First off I think the small claims limit in Ca is 10K.

    But I think you may have a problem in court with this one unless you have guaranteed machine specs in writing from the dealer. You are going to have to defend the following in court.

    An off hand comment from a salesman is not proof of specs and he will deny that he ever said that. You state that you were able to check out the machine before purchase, so I assume it was under power. What kept you from jogging the axis through their travel?

    Used machines are normally sold like used cars: As is, Where is. Why did you not look up the specs on the machine?



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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    Just a few thoughts without passing judgment on either you or the dealer, but rather just pointing out a a few facts. As far as the spindle, it may have been just fine when you bought the machine, they are a maintenance item and require periodic service.

    First off I think the small claims limit in Ca is 10K.

    But I think you may have a problem in court with this one unless you have guaranteed machine specs in writing from the dealer. You are going to have to defend the following in court.

    An off hand comment from a salesman is not proof of specs and he will deny that he ever said that. You state that you were able to check out the machine before purchase, so I assume it was under power. What kept you from jogging the axis through their travel?

    Used machines are normally sold like used cars: As is, Where is. Why did you not look up the specs on the machine?
    Hi Jim,
    Thank you for your words. I do have the travels in writing and they were included in the final receipt for the machine. I was told verbally as well as in writing through PDFs that I have saved that the travel was 30" in X. I bought this machine for that reason to do a job and it's a bigger deal that I don't have the capacity to do said job.

    J

    Sent from my LGLS996 using Tapatalk



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    That being the case, then the dealer should make it right. One thought is that why did it take a month to figure out that the travel is only 24.5 inches? But that is not really an issue. Just out of curiosity, what machine model/type is it?



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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    That being the case, then the dealer should make it right. One thought is that why did it take a month to figure out that the travel is only 24.5 inches? But that is not really an issue. Just out of curiosity, what machine model/type is it?
    Jim,
    I was doing in house things like running proper power to the machine as well as moving my compressor outside and running air to the machine. I also trusted the dealer and thought they would check the travel if they were saying in writing what it was. Other reason is I needed to recently machine something 26" long and obviously i could not machine it.

    It's an older milltronics vmc. I want to give the company the opportunity to make it right before I go sue crazy and leave negative reviews for them. So far they haven't responded, but if they do I just don't know what to ask for. Is it worth $1k or $5k, how do you place value on something like this?

    J



    Sent from my LGLS996 using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    I guess for a ballpark figure you could figure it this way: 24.5/30 = 0.816 * the price of the machine. That would be about a 20% discount. As much as a hassle as it is, getting a machine that will do the job you need to do might be the best option. It might be worth a road trip to the dealer just to have a sit down chat with them.



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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    A:
    Don´t be difficult, or abrasive.
    Is the 30" in x decisive and critical for You ?
    If it is, why did You not notice it in day 1, or week 1, vs 1 month later ?

    MT dealers want to have a good rep.
    You have little claim in law - but You do have some.
    E.
    All typical but theoretical, from my experience, in MT business.

    Say You want to fix it.
    MT dealer will swap the machine for another model, with true 30" travel.

    Say it costs 5000$ extra.
    Say MT dealer wants to split the cost.
    Now, your max cost is 2500$.
    The max cost You can claim in court is then 5000$.
    Since they now offered another piece at that price.

    And in reality, since You originally bought as-is where-is, your claim has low validity in total.
    Seller is in error.
    He claimed too much travel, a factual easily checked item.

    You are also in error.
    Did not check it immediately, did not check it pre-purchase.
    Accepted the goods.
    Have used the goods.

    My advice:
    If the 30" is truly critical, ask to swap for bigger one.
    Accept paying for some part of the cost.
    I have no idea what "some" is in this case.

    The worst thing you want is an antagonistic relationship. Always.

    If the 30" is not really critical, go there to talk to the owner/boss/manager.
    Explain Your concerns.
    Ask for some redress.
    Be honest, respectful, do take their pov into account.

    E.g. they will likely have some stuff around, You could use, that is expensive new.
    Ask if they would consider comping You machine dual-station vices, pneumatic chucks, collet sets, tooling sets, for the perceived value.
    E.
    A good approach, ime, is offering 1000$ for 10.000$ in second hand value for stuff that cost 50.000 $ new.

    They got it "free" with a machine, you got it "cheap", both feel good, and they will speak well of You.
    You will speak well of them - "they fixed up their minor error, are upstanding people with a word that is good...".

    You want a win-win.
    They want a win-win.
    A win-win is always possible, when both sides are professional and honest and fair - and wish to continue trading.

    When one side does not wish to be fair, to trade, then the only answer is "pistols at dawn", preferably from behind without warning.
    A minor trade dispute is never, ever, ever worth that, even if You "win".
    E.
    I repped a 2nd hand cnc machine to a dealer in the UK (we did not deal with used stuff) - as I sold the guy a new machine from us.
    The dealer bought it, paid cash as agreed in advance, seller was really happy.
    The UK guys received it ... it was missing 2 pneumatic vices, pictured and agreed on, in the deal.

    I called the seller.
    By no means angry, or aggressive. "Listen, a mistake seems to have happened.."
    He apologised, vices were shipped.

    I was good. Buyer was good. Seller was good.
    Everyone "won".
    I have no idea why the vices were missing originally, do not care, did not ask.

    There is mostly zero profit for anyone poking someone about errors - yes they might have tried to be sharp and keep them, whatever.
    Or they were simply inattentive.
    Or the right guy was sick, and the helper was not so competent.
    Irrelevant.
    Goal is good relations, good profits, easy payments.

    Likewise, never, ever, ever threaten anyone.
    If You want to/need to sue in small-claims court, whatever, do so.
    If You did not state it in advance, both are better off, and You are more likely to get a positive result.
    And You can still have a cordial, professional, relationship afterwards.

    When the court date approaches, You can still / they can still, say "..listen .. could we not ..."



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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    I guess for a ballpark figure you could figure it this way: 24.5/30 = 0.816 * the price of the machine. That would be about a 20% discount. As much as a hassle as it is, getting a machine that will do the job you need to do might be the best option. It might be worth a road trip to the dealer just to have a sit down chat with them.
    I agree Jim, I'm not one to sue and email people. Problem is I felt I needed the documentation of sending them an email and giving them time to respond. I'm reasonable, I would be happy with a full refund or trade up plus or minus cash for another machine that's capable. Do I take into account the money I'm out for the job as well? I mean it's about $25k per year of lost income.

    J

    Sent from my LGLS996 using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    A:
    Don´t be difficult, or abrasive.
    Is the 30" in x decisive and critical for You ?
    If it is, why did You not notice it in day 1, or week 1, vs 1 month later ?

    MT dealers want to have a good rep.
    You have little claim in law - but You do have some.
    E.
    All typical but theoretical, from my experience, in MT business.

    Say You want to fix it.
    MT dealer will swap the machine for another model, with true 30" travel.

    Say it costs 5000$ extra.
    Say MT dealer wants to split the cost.
    Now, your max cost is 2500$.
    The max cost You can claim in court is then 5000$.
    Since they now offered another piece at that price.

    And in reality, since You originally bought as-is where-is, your claim has low validity in total.
    Seller is in error.
    He claimed too much travel, a factual easily checked item.

    You are also in error.
    Did not check it immediately, did not check it pre-purchase.
    Accepted the goods.
    Have used the goods.

    My advice:
    If the 30" is truly critical, ask to swap for bigger one.
    Accept paying for some part of the cost.
    I have no idea what "some" is in this case.

    The worst thing you want is an antagonistic relationship. Always.

    If the 30" is not really critical, go there to talk to the owner/boss/manager.
    Explain Your concerns.
    Ask for some redress.
    Be honest, respectful, do take their pov into account.

    E.g. they will likely have some stuff around, You could use, that is expensive new.
    Ask if they would consider comping You machine dual-station vices, pneumatic chucks, collet sets, tooling sets, for the perceived value.
    E.
    A good approach, ime, is offering 1000$ for 10.000$ in second hand value for stuff that cost 50.000 $ new.

    They got it "free" with a machine, you got it "cheap", both feel good, and they will speak well of You.
    You will speak well of them - "they fixed up their minor error, are upstanding people with a word that is good...".

    You want a win-win.
    They want a win-win.
    A win-win is always possible, when both sides are professional and honest and fair - and wish to continue trading.

    When one side does not wish to be fair, to trade, then the only answer is "pistols at dawn", preferably from behind without warning.
    A minor trade dispute is never, ever, ever worth that, even if You "win".
    E.
    I repped a 2nd hand cnc machine to a dealer in the UK (we did not deal with used stuff) - as I sold the guy a new machine from us.
    The dealer bought it, paid cash as agreed in advance, seller was really happy.
    The UK guys received it ... it was missing 2 pneumatic vices, pictured and agreed on, in the deal.

    I called the seller.
    By no means angry, or aggressive. "Listen, a mistake seems to have happened.."
    He apologised, vices were shipped.

    I was good. Buyer was good. Seller was good.
    Everyone "won".
    I have no idea why the vices were missing originally, do not care, did not ask.

    There is mostly zero profit for anyone poking someone about errors - yes they might have tried to be sharp and keep them, whatever.
    Or they were simply inattentive.
    Or the right guy was sick, and the helper was not so competent.
    Irrelevant.
    Goal is good relations, good profits, easy payments.

    Likewise, never, ever, ever threaten anyone.
    If You want to/need to sue in small-claims court, whatever, do so.
    If You did not state it in advance, both are better off, and You are more likely to get a positive result.
    And You can still have a cordial, professional, relationship afterwards.

    When the court date approaches, You can still / they can still, say "..listen .. could we not ..."
    Hanermo,
    Thanks for the advice. I agree that this should be handled a certain way and have considered going in person and talking to them. I am merely seeking advice with the hope that it does not come to court. I don't want to make time for that, it's a last ditch effort of they refuse to own up to their misrepresentation.

    When your buyer bought a machine and had it shipped did they come and verify travels or take your word on that? Just curious.

    Please see a few posts up regarding why it took so long for me to check. Yes I am at error for not immediately checking, partly I did not know how to use the machine when I was in their building for inspection. Also, written and stated on the spec sheets I tend to believe.

    J

    Sent from my LGLS996 using Tapatalk



  10. #10
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    Setting up the paper trail is the correct thing to do. As far as the lost work, that is a bit nebulous . Were you guaranteed the work? And could you still get the work if you had a machine that would do the job? If you had a larger machine could you replace the lost work with other equivalent work? If you can trade up, that might be the best option.



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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    Well I jumped the gun a bit. Guess I'm just used to people not giving good customer service. They are totally taking care of me in either a monetary way or in the way of trade in. I'm going to look at inventory today and review their cash offer to see what seems best for me. Thank you all for advice.

    J

    Sent from my LGLS996 using Tapatalk



  12. #12
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Need advice on misrepresented machine purchase

    I'm happy to hear it is working out for you.



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