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Thread: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    Thank you Robert. The more I use the MB2 the more I realize how different it is. Sinking outputs and NPN inputs make no sense to me. The learning curve for me is steep. Your diagrams have been helpful.
    Glad I can help! It took me a little time to wrap my brain around how to wire everything up. Aside from having to create a few different terminal block zones for distributing a few different voltages and grounds, most everything has been pretty much a direct connection. I have also used the relays on the MB2 in some cases where I could have used solid state just to avoid a little weirdness that I couldn't figure out. I always get a little nervous when trying to connect two separate solid state systems (e.g. the MB2 to the Hitachi VFD). Mechanical switches (relays) always make more sense to me.

    BTW, I have found a few more errors in my schematics and wiring diagrams, that I still need to correct. The biggest one is that I called out the wrong pins on the motor for STEP and DIR. They are reversed. Doesn't hurt anything, it just doesn't work. Fortunately I only took 15 minutes to figure it out.

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    So on to the wiring and programming updates. Wiring was pretty straight-forward...route the cables through the cable chains long, trim to length, crimp on terminals per the ClearPath manual, fill the connector body, double check, plug in to the motor, dress with zip-ties and close up the cable chains. Really not much to it, except for time and attention to detail.

    One thing I may improve at some point...I purchased the sensor cables for the prox sensors through FineLine. These are all about 4 meters in length, which means that all of them are longer than really necessary. I have the excess coiled up, but that is not ideal. Eventually, I may buy some new connectors and trim them to the right length.

    After getting the wiring in place, I realized that I forgot to route the spindle cable (doh!!)...Open up the cable chain again and get that in place. I still need to trim that cable to length and re-attach it to the VFD. I also need to ground the shield inside the cabinet. Forgot to drill that hole (doh!!).

    With all the motors installed and wired, it was time to get them all programmed an running. I copied the tuning configuration from the first Y-axis motor to the second one and made sure to set the direction signal to the opposite for that motor so the motors wouldn't fight each other. Tried to use UCCNC to jog...no dice. Hmmm what's going on there? It worked on the single motor. Long story short, I forgot to set the motors to "Step and Direction" mode using the ClearPath software.

    I then Auto-Tuned the Z-axis and X-axis. Both managed to tune pretty nicely, the Ball screw on the Z-axis was definitely a smoother process, but both axes feel nice an stiff and have a nice acceleration profile. I have not checked the accuracy on them yet, but will do that when I have a chance.

    The Y-axis motors are definitely not as quiet as the X-axis. The tuning may be a little too stiff at this point. I may try to adjust it, but I have to be careful to change both motors at the same time or it could get a little dicey.

    I still need to install the Y-axis limit switches, but after that, I will be working on sensor adjustment, squaring the gantry (through sensor adjustment), tramming the spindle, and installing the spoil board.

    I did discover a small challenge that I just need to figure out...I triggered the Z-axis limit switch a few times today and was not able to recover gracefully. I had to rotate the motor coupling by hand to get move the axis off the sensor before I could get UCCNC to reset. I'm sure that there is a way to deal with that better, I just need to figure out what it is in my software config or wiring that causes the problem.

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by DDgitfiddle View Post
    I did discover a small challenge that I just need to figure out...I triggered the Z-axis limit switch a few times today and was not able to recover gracefully. I had to rotate the motor coupling by hand to get move the axis off the sensor before I could get UCCNC to reset. I'm sure that there is a way to deal with that better, I just need to figure out what it is in my software config or wiring that causes the problem.
    Did you press the UCCNC Override Limit button before Reset? Usually, when a limit switch/sensor is active, pressing Override Limit and then Reset will allow you to jog the axis off of the limit switch/sensor.

    Frank



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by pontoonman View Post
    Did you press the UCCNC Override Limit button before Reset? Usually, when a limit switch/sensor is active, pressing Override Limit and then Reset will allow you to jog the axis off of the limit switch/sensor.

    Frank
    You mean that big rectangular button that reads "Override Limits" just to the left of the Reset button in UCCNC? That button is pretty hard to miss. I really wish I had seen it yesterday, because it would have saved me from feeling like such a nincompoop today. Clearly the problem resides somewhere between my shop floor and my computer keyboard.

    Pardon my sarcasm...I truly did not see, or try, that button, but I suspect it would do the job. I'll give it a try. Thanks for the help Frank!

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    I pointed out all of these sensor location errors to Nate when I built mine close to a year ago (wow - doesn't seem like it's been a year!). I know he has relocated most of these so they are no longer in the path but I don't know when the mods were implemented. I did some workarounds, as well, to keep the sensors off the grease fittings and remounted the X sensors so they didn't hit the plastic bearing housings. I also put a small square piece of 1/8" thick cold rolled steel on the aluminum components to double my sensing distance.

    The way you're running everything, Robert, is really clean and nicely done - good job!

    David

    David
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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by DDgitfiddle View Post
    You mean that big rectangular button that reads "Override Limits" just to the left of the Reset button in UCCNC? That button is pretty hard to miss. I really wish I had seen it yesterday, because it would have saved me from feeling like such a nincompoop today. Clearly the problem resides somewhere between my shop floor and my computer keyboard.

    Pardon my sarcasm...I truly did not see, or try, that button, but I suspect it would do the job. I'll give it a try. Thanks for the help Frank!

    -Robert
    Confirmed...the Override Limits button did the trick. It's almost like it was designed for just this situation.

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by difalkner View Post
    I pointed out all of these sensor location errors to Nate when I built mine close to a year ago (wow - doesn't seem like it's been a year!). I know he has relocated most of these so they are no longer in the path but I don't know when the mods were implemented. I did some workarounds, as well, to keep the sensors off the grease fittings and remounted the X sensors so they didn't hit the plastic bearing housings. I also put a small square piece of 1/8" thick cold rolled steel on the aluminum components to double my sensing distance.

    The way you're running everything, Robert, is really clean and nicely done - good job!

    David
    Thanks, David! The cold-rolled steel trick is a good thought. I was trying to find some old ceiling fan weights that I used to have kicking around for just that purpose. I must have thrown them out. I'll come up with something else and stick them on with a little 3M VHB tape. The sensors don't have as much clearance as I would like to avoid getting smashed.

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    I picked up a short piece of 1/2" wide, 1/8" thick bar at the hardware store and cut some 1/2" x 1/2" pieces for the sensors. I attached them with double stick like you mentioned.

    - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2-122-steel-added-sensors-jpg

    - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2-123-steel-added-sensors-jpg

    David

    David
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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Not alot of time to work on the system this past week...seems to be a theme, lately...but I did make a little progress. And then things stopped working like they had been. Two steps forward, one step back.

    I was mostly cleaning up a few things this week trying to get to the point that I could run my first program. I want to check the overall squareness of the gantry and tram the spindle. I needed to trim the spindle cable to length after installing it in the cable chains and get it grounded "better." I also needed to adjust the limit switches so that they would trigger before the machine hit the bumpers. Finally I realized that I still had the HLFB signals from the motors bypassed.

    In the process of trying to home the Y axis, I realized that there is a pretty big difference in when the two sides of the gantry hit the bumpers. This resulted in over driving one side a little because the sensor didn't trigger. After an e-stop, I assessed the damage, and everything looks OK. I put a few washers behind one of the bumpers and moved the sensor so that it would trigger at the same time as the other side to avoid the issue.

    The root cause of this is probably that these particular stop plates got bent in shipment. I did what I could to bend them back, but there was only so much I could do, and it resulted in the stops being in different places. What I have learned is that this gantry is so stiff that trying to square it up by adjusting the two home sensor positions is not going to work. When I reinstalled the gantry (after moving the system into the shop) I tried to square it up to the main rails, but it may not be perfect yet. I still need to check it with a machining setup, then I will have to adjust it mechanically.

    The second problem started when I removed the motor HLFB bypass wiring. The system now requires three simultaneous button pushes to enable the motors. I have to push the safety relay reset, the override button (OVR on the MB2), AND the reset button on UCCNC. That's a little safer than I was really intending. This is a design problem, not a construction problem. UCCNC will not send the "enable" signal to the motors until the UCCNC reset button is pressed. Unfortunately, that can't be done until all of the E-stop conditions are reset, which requires the override switch. I need to think some more about how to solve this the "right" way.

    The last problem is a little more worrisome. I haven't run the spindle in quite a while. I tried it again tonight after making some wiring changes and the VFD is throwing a E30.4 error. The Hitachi manual indicates that this could be electrical noise related, and it is occurring when the spindle is accelerating. It happens almost instantly when I try to run the spindle.

    After running the cables in the cable chain, I needed to shorten the spindle cable. I had planned to do this, because I wanted to minimize cable length. At the same time, I also decided to try to ground the cable "properly." The cable enters the main enclosure right beside the VFD. I removed about 1" of insulation around the cable to expose the shielding and wrapped metal strapping (copper plated) around it then bolted it to the main back plate. It is attached at one of the corners using one of the nuts that holds the backplane to the enclosure. The ground line in the cable is attached to one of the two ground points on the VFD's heatsink, and the other ground point is cabled to a screw on the back plate. The VFD is also attached directly to the back plate, so technically the heatsink is also grounded to the back plate. I tried to ground the spindle (i.e. connecting the spindle chassis to the grounding wire) but there was no really good place to do that, so I did the best I could. That is a possible weak point in the grounding loop.

    Prior to all of these changes, the cable shield was not connected to any ground. The spindle was also just running by itself, so there was little for it to interfere with. For whatever reason, it was working. I was tempted to just bundle up the shield and ground it to the heat sink, but decided to try this other way first. So my first attempt will be to see if removing the ground strap will do the trick. If that works then I will have to see how the system runs without it. If there are no noise problems, then that will be good enough. If there are noise problems, I will have to figure out some other way to ground the cable. Other possible problems could be that alot of wires are now bundled together with the step input from the MB2, and maybe there is too much noise getting onto those signals. I am using the differential output from the MB2, and this worked before.

    Needless to say, I still haven't run the system with any sort of coordinated motion, just jogging and homing. I need to figure out these issues first. Hopefully this week.

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Ref the VFD noise problem; I got some help from CNCroom with how to connect the pulse stream to the VFD. There is a diagram near the end of my build thread that shows how they suggested it be connected but basically, just assign the pulse stream output in UCCNC to any output pin and connect that to the "EA" terminal on the VFD and connect a "0volt" and one of the inputs at the vfd "L" terminal. This will give you a 24volt pulse stream input to the VFD. The differential connection is only about a 3volt signal. The diagram is from CNCroom.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2-nmiemeonlmnnlnnk-png  


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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Make sure that the shield is only connected to ground at ONE end of the cable.



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by beltramidave View Post
    Make sure that the shield is only connected to ground at ONE end of the cable.
    I need to go back and look at that. I may have soldered the shield to the ground pin at the motor because that is what Hitachi indicates in their manual. No too hard to fix, though.

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    Ref the VFD noise problem; I got some help from CNCroom with how to connect the pulse stream to the VFD. There is a diagram near the end of my build thread that shows how they suggested it be connected but basically, just assign the pulse stream output in UCCNC to any output pin and connect that to the "EA" terminal on the VFD and connect a "0volt" and one of the inputs at the vfd "L" terminal. This will give you a 24volt pulse stream input to the VFD. The differential connection is only about a 3volt signal. The diagram is from CNCroom.

    Your description makes sense, but the diagram seems odd to me...an input AND an output attached to the EA pin? Not quite sure how that would work or what it would accomplish.

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by beltramidave View Post
    Make sure that the shield is only connected to ground at ONE end of the cable.
    If they are taking about the VFD to the Spindle, then the Shield has to be connected at both ends

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    I had a little time this evening to look into the circuit that 1Jumper10 posted from Weerasak at CNCroom.com. It's an interesting "hack" (used in the more positive sense of the term than the "hacks" I have been applying above). Here is my mechanical engineering interpretation of what's going on...

    The Hitachi VFD is expecting a pulse train at 24VDC, into a sinking input. The outputs on the MB2 are also sinking, so we need to get a 24VDC source from somewhere. That's why the MB2 has a bunch of 24V pins near all the outputs. The problem is that these 24V pins are not current limited, and neither are the MB2 outputs...we might cook the outputs because we would draw too much current (more than 100mA). The outputs expect to be connected to a load like a small relay coil or a resistor that will limit the current. The MB2 inputs are sourcing, so they supply 24VDC. And they have a resistor in series, so they limit the current. So the input provides the current, and that current goes to both the VFD input and the MB2 output. The MB2 output switches it on and off which creates the pulse train. The MB2 input would also see the pulse train, which shouldn't be a huge issue. Pretty cool trick! (Mech. Es are always impressed by what EE's can do with electrons.)

    The same thing could also be accomplished (I think) by placing a resistor of at least 240 ohms between the MB2 output and the VFD input then using a 24VDC power supply (or one of the 24V pins on the MB2) instead of the MB2 input. A larger resistor (1kOhm) would be a better choice because the current would be lower with less danger of exceeding the max. Not sure which way I will try, but I will try that before I mess with the grounding scheme on the spindle cable.

    Thanks for the tip, 1Jumper10!

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    I did find one slightly concerning thing...I have found conflicting ratings for the EA pin on the Hitachi VFD. In one table it indicates that 10V is the maximum, and in a couple of sample circuit diagrams it indicates 24VDC. I suspect that the 24VDC is correct, but it would be an unfortunate mistake.

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by DDgitfiddle View Post
    Your description makes sense, but the diagram seems odd to me...an input AND an output attached to the EA pin? Not quite sure how that would work or what it would accomplish.

    -Robert
    I asked him about the input and why it was needed. He said it was because it had a resistor with it and that pulls the input up to 24 Volts. He said you could accomplish the same thing with a 3Kohm resistor but with the input used in this manner you could monitor the frequency of the pulse train. I understand how you could do that but not sure where in UCCNC you could display it.
    Also, the manual for the VFD I believe shows a 3 - 30volt range allowed for the EA input. Where did you find that it listed the 10 volt maximum for the input?



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    I asked him about the input and why it was needed. He said it was because it had a resistor with it and that pulls the input up to 24 Volts. He said you could accomplish the same thing with a 3Kohm resistor but with the input used in this manner you could monitor the frequency of the pulse train. I understand how you could do that but not sure where in UCCNC you could display it.
    Also, the manual for the VFD I believe shows a 3 - 30volt range allowed for the EA input. Where did you find that it listed the 10 volt maximum for the input?

    I found the voltage rating in a few conflicting places. On page 3-12 of the May 2010 NT325X User Manual the rating is listed as 10V, but on Page 4-5 in a sample wiring diagram it lists 24V.

    Your description makes sense, though. I just wish there was less confusion about the Hitachi rating.

    -Robert



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    The Hitachi manual(s) are indeed lacking in info on using the pulse train input mode. I have seen both the 10V and the higher spec for PT EA. I use the 10V spec. A while back I did some amplitude tests on the pulse train EA input and found that around 5V (don't recall exactly what the number was) the PT mode stopped working. So, it looked to me like using 10V had good margin. As an aside, I always isolate all input/output signals between the BOB and VFD. I used an optoisolator (of appropriate bandwidth) on the BOB side to drive EA. I used the 10V reference voltage (good for 10ma I think) that the VFD provides to pull up the collector of the optoisolator using a 2k or so resistor. I've looked at the 25K Hz PT at the VFD end using this scheme and the signal looks good and is stable. Of course, mileage may vary.

    Frank



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    Default Re: - FineLine Saturn 4x2 with ClearPath, UC300-ETH / MB2

    Quote Originally Posted by 1Jumper10 View Post
    Ref the VFD noise problem; I got some help from CNCroom with how to connect the pulse stream to the VFD. There is a diagram near the end of my build thread that shows how they suggested it be connected but basically, just assign the pulse stream output in UCCNC to any output pin and connect that to the "EA" terminal on the VFD and connect a "0volt" and one of the inputs at the vfd "L" terminal. This will give you a 24volt pulse stream input to the VFD. The differential connection is only about a 3volt signal. The diagram is from CNCroom.
    Robert -

    I tried this connection scheme tonight and it didnt work. I believe the problem is the EA input wants to see a pulse stream with positive polarity. So sourcing (?) outputs from a control board may work... Anyway, I went back to using the C axis Step+ and Step - CSTP+ to EA and CSTP - to L. I emailed Weerasak to let him know.



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