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    Registered cavemancarver's Avatar
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    Default Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    I have been trying to decide, over the last year or so, whether to build a new router or to go out and buy one.

    I am a fairly experienced "hobby" CNC router user running a 2' x 4' machine with Nema 23 570 oz/in motors and a Porter Cable 3.75 HP router. Shortly after buying this machine I realized I needed more power so I upgraded the power supply, electronics, motors and router from the much smaller components that came with the machine. I have been running this new configuration for a few years now cutting wood accurately at around 80 to 100 inches per minute and have been very happy with that performance.

    Here is my machine now:
    -

    -
    I use Vectric Aspire and Mach 3 for all of my work and love this combination of software. I have been cutting mostly wooden and acrylic signs and boxes and some aluminum at times and have been able to produce some fairly nice products with the setup I have.

    Everything has been going well until recently, when I tried to cut out a large project from a slab 3 inches thick by 17 inches wide by 44 inches long. This was a "one-off project for an upscale buyer willing to pay good money for an unusual 3D "carved" item. Anyway...my little machine took forever to complete this job, about fifteen hours, and I did make some money on this project but I really had a lot of time invested in it. The stress level was also very high as I thought that my machine might "crash" at any moment and if something went wrong I would have to start over from scratch and lose hours of time not to mention the cost of a new slab. I was successful and got paid but not before biting my nails down to stubs and pulling a few clumps of much needed and very scarce hair out.

    Bottom line...I have decided to start catering to the more "upscale" market as the guy who bought the project, discussed above, indicated he would be back for more and that he would be spreading the word about me and my "skills" as it were. So, I really need to speed things up.

    I hit the web once again in search of ideas for building or maybe even "the perfect machine" and what did I stumble upon...the Saturn Series 2 x 4 Router from Fineline Automation. You can see this machine here.

    Does anybody out there believe in Love At First Sight? Wow was all I could think when I first saw their machine. The perfect little machine, built like a tank with exactly the kinds of components I was looking for and a great price to boot. This had to be a mistake so I called the company. Nate was the guy I talked to and he assured me there was no mistake so I went ahead and bought one. I guess I am lucky this wasn't the "perfect woman" or I would be in a lot of trouble by now.

    Anyway, my new machine is scheduled to be shipped out on Tuesday November 1st and it will probably be in my possession by the end of next week. Now my only problem is how to sell my current machine and then make room for the new machine.

    I will be posting my experiences with this machine and the company here and will also be asking questions to everyone out there about setting it up as far as motors and electronics etc as I am sure I will encounter many glitches as I go along. So, thanks in advance for helping out.

    So far Nate, at Fineline Automation, has been very helpful and I am looking forward to working with him and his company on this installation.

    --------------------------



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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    80-100ipm is very slow for a router.
    You probably could have tripled your speed or better with the right components.
    My wooden machine can cut at 150-175ipm, with 250oz steppers.


    .............buyer willing to pay good money for an unusual 3D "carved" item. Anyway...my little machine took forever to complete this job, about fifteen hours,
    No matter how you slice it, 3D carving takes a loooong time, and you need to charge accordingly, unless you like working for free. There's no way around it, even with a fast machine. The most important thing is a very fast Z axis, as it will be the limiting factor in 3D carving jobs.

    Yes, the Saturn looks like a solid machine at a very fair price.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Welcome, Caveman, and I can tell you firsthand that you're going to love the Saturn 2x4. If you haven't already looked, here's my build of the first Saturn from Nate and Brian (Newcarver) built the second one. I'm very new to all of this but holler if you have questions about the build. Be sure to post yours when it comes in and you start building it. Get some help moving it - heavy!!

    David

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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    80-100ipm is very slow for a router.
    You probably could have tripled your speed or better with the right components.
    My wooden machine can cut at 150-175ipm, with 250oz steppers.
    Ger21:

    I do realize that 80 - 100 ipm is slow but I was trying to "hog" out a lot of material fairly fast on the roughing passes. I wanted to use a 1/2" bit and cut at least 1/2" depth at more than 100 ipm and my machine had a hard time doing that. The Nema 23 570 oz/in motors started to bog down and lose steps if I pushed them too hard. I think they were losing torque at higher rpm's causing me to lose steps. The torque curves for the motors showed that after 400 rpm's they lost torque really fast. I decided to try to find a more solidly built machine that I could run with much larger motors in order to make deeper cuts with larger bits at faster cutting speeds.

    Now my dilemma is which motors to run on the new machine. I got the upgraded Nema 34 motor mounts and I think I will go with 1200 oz/in motors but I want to make sure to get motors that are reliable and able to hold on to their torque at higher rpm's. Can you guys make any suggestions on motors as well as matching drivers?

    ----------------

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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Quote Originally Posted by difalkner View Post
    Welcome, Caveman, and I can tell you firsthand that you're going to love the Saturn 2x4. If you haven't already looked, here's my build of the first Saturn from Nate and Brian (Newcarver) built the second one. I'm very new to all of this but holler if you have questions about the build. Be sure to post yours when it comes in and you start building it. Get some help moving it - heavy!!
    David:

    Thanks for your reply and I must say your machine looks really, really good. I like the effort you put into your electronics enclosure...it looks like a factory job. Can you tell me which motors you decided to use with your router? I read through your build but I guess missed the page where you discussed motor size and specs.

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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Quote Originally Posted by cavemancarver View Post
    David:

    Thanks for your reply and I must say your machine looks really, really good. I like the effort you put into your electronics enclosure...it looks like a factory job. Can you tell me which motors you decided to use with your router? I read through your build but I guess missed the page where you discussed motor size and specs.
    Thanks! It was a fun build, for sure. The stepper motors are NEMA 34, 637 oz. in. from Stepper Online. While I have yet to task them fully I don't get the impression they're going to bog down at all.

    David
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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Those steppers should work okay, as long as you use the driver they're pairing it with, since they really want about 60v supplied. I'd suggest less depth of cut and a faster cutting speed for that hardwood project. It seems you could halve the DOC, double the speed and come out ahead.

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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Gerry, David, Andrew...

    Thanks for all of your comments so far. I hope to be able to "pick your brains" during the setup of this machine so be warned.

    OK Everyone:

    I am a pretty smart guy but I am also smart enough to know when I am not very smart. I learned a long time ago not to re-invent the wheel and that there is always a very good reason why things are done a particular way and not necessarily the way I would do them. Therefore, I usually do things the same way all the other "smart guys" are doing them and because of that I have been pretty successful in completing pretty much anything I set out to do. I don't want to or need to invent. I want to make stuff and leave the inventing to people who are much smarter than I am. Pretty smart, right.

    My dilemma...I need to figure out what motors, motor drivers and power supply to run on this machine. For those of you just reading this, the machine is the Saturn Series 2 x 4 router from Fineline Automation. It is a pretty solid machine with rack and pinion on the X and Y axis and a ballscrew on the Z axis.

    I want to be able to "push the envelope" on this machine to be able to make some pretty aggressive cuts in wood. I need to be able to cut with a 1/2" endmill at a depth of at least 1/2" and I want to be able to do it at cutting speeds of 200 to 300 ipm or more if possible. Please let me know if I am way off base here. I promise I won't be offended. I am not smart enough for that.

    I will be running a 3.5 hp Porter Cable router spinning at 20,000 rpm's. The cutting described above will be "roughing" cuts made in slabs of lumber from 3" to 4" thick. The final cuts will be "finishing" cuts in a 3D project. The bottom line is I need to know what is possible with this kind of machine but keep in mind I am not "made of money". I am willing to spend some reasonable amount but I don't want to spend what I might call an excessive amount.

    I am thinking of putting Nema 34 1200 oz/in motors on this machine but I am not sure if that will be overkill. I am thinking about the KL34H2120-60-4A from Automation Technologies but I don't know if that is a good motor or not . The specs and the torque curve looks pretty good but I have no experience with this motor so any input you guys might have would be appreciated. I did think about using a 906 oz/in motor but the 1200 oz/in is only $10.00 more so I thought...why not?

    My next concern is with the drivers and power supply to drive these motors. I read on the Gecko website somewhere that voltage to the motors should be 32 times the square root of the inductance. If that is true then I will need 78 volts to the motors at 6 amps. The specs say the motor draws 6 Amps Current Per Phase ( Bipolar Parallel). So...I am not sure of the power supply I need to run four of these motors. Do I need an 80 volt power supply able to put out 24 amps or do I need something larger?

    Next is the motor drivers. I was hoping to recycle the drivers I am currently using. They are also from Automation technologies...KL-9082. They are able to handle 80 volts at 8.2 amps so I guess they would be OK for this machine but again I am not smart enough to know if they are the best "solution" for me. Are these drivers a good product or should I go in a different direction? Questions...questions...questions. Hopefully, answers...answers...answers.

    Thanks for "listening" guys. Hope to have a fruitful discussion about this over the next few days and not only be able to come up with a good "compromise" for my situation but also for other people out there wondering about some of the same things.

    =================

    Go First Class or don't go at all.


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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Quote Originally Posted by cavemancarver View Post
    Gerry, David, Andrew...

    Thanks for all of your comments so far. I hope to be able to "pick your brains" during the setup of this machine so be warned.

    OK Everyone:

    I am a pretty smart guy but I am also smart enough to know when I am not very smart. I learned a long time ago not to re-invent the wheel and that there is always a very good reason why things are done a particular way and not necessarily the way I would do them. Therefore, I usually do things the same way all the other "smart guys" are doing them and because of that I have been pretty successful in completing pretty much anything I set out to do. I don't want to or need to invent. I want to make stuff and leave the inventing to people who are much smarter than I am. Pretty smart, right.

    My dilemma...I need to figure out what motors, motor drivers and power supply to run on this machine. For those of you just reading this, the machine is the Saturn Series 2 x 4 router from Fineline Automation. It is a pretty solid machine with rack and pinion on the X and Y axis and a ballscrew on the Z axis.

    I want to be able to "push the envelope" on this machine to be able to make some pretty aggressive cuts in wood. I need to be able to cut with a 1/2" endmill at a depth of at least 1/2" and I want to be able to do it at cutting speeds of 200 to 300 ipm or more if possible. Please let me know if I am way off base here. I promise I won't be offended. I am not smart enough for that.

    I will be running a 3.5 hp Porter Cable router spinning at 20,000 rpm's. The cutting described above will be "roughing" cuts made in slabs of lumber from 3" to 4" thick. The final cuts will be "finishing" cuts in a 3D project. The bottom line is I need to know what is possible with this kind of machine but keep in mind I am not "made of money". I am willing to spend some reasonable amount but I don't want to spend what I might call an excessive amount.

    I am thinking of putting Nema 34 1200 oz/in motors on this machine but I am not sure if that will be overkill. I am thinking about the KL34H2120-60-4A from Automation Technologies but I don't know if that is a good motor or not . The specs and the torque curve looks pretty good but I have no experience with this motor so any input you guys might have would be appreciated. I did think about using a 906 oz/in motor but the 1200 oz/in is only $10.00 more so I thought...why not?

    My next concern is with the drivers and power supply to drive these motors. I read on the Gecko website somewhere that voltage to the motors should be 32 times the square root of the inductance. If that is true then I will need 78 volts to the motors at 6 amps. The specs say the motor draws 6 Amps Current Per Phase ( Bipolar Parallel). So...I am not sure of the power supply I need to run four of these motors. Do I need an 80 volt power supply able to put out 24 amps or do I need something larger?

    Next is the motor drivers. I was hoping to recycle the drivers I am currently using. They are also from Automation technologies...KL-9082. They are able to handle 80 volts at 8.2 amps so I guess they would be OK for this machine but again I am not smart enough to know if they are the best "solution" for me. Are these drivers a good product or should I go in a different direction? Questions...questions...questions. Hopefully, answers...answers...answers.

    Thanks for "listening" guys. Hope to have a fruitful discussion about this over the next few days and not only be able to come up with a good "compromise" for my situation but also for other people out there wondering about some of the same things.

    =================
    You're going to love the machine.

    Regarding the motors, the KL34H2120-60-4A are nice. Like I mentioned when talking to you on the phone, you really want to find a motor with a lower inductance and at 6mh it will work will.

    As far as the voltage is concerned, 32 times the square root of the inductance is a rule of thumb but it's not absolutely required. 48V, 60V, or 72V power supplies would do just fine. If you use 72V, use one 8A supply per motor. If you use 60V, use one 10A supply per 2 motors. If you use 47V, use one 12.5A supply per 2 motors.

    As far as the driver, the KL-9082 is fine for the motors.

    That setup should be just fine. I have customers taking full depth cuts with compression bits on 3/4" plywood sheets at 200-250 ipm with similar setups.

    Fine Line Automation
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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    I don't have any experience with rack and pinion, but I think a 640oz motor is more than enough for a machine that size, and should give you quicker accel and faster rapids, due to the much lower inductance.

    High-Torque Stepper Motor, Stepper Motor, Driver, Stepper Motor kit, DC Servo Motor, DC Servo Motor kit, Stepper Motor Power Supply, CNC Router, Spindle, and other Components. Stepper Motor | Stepper Motor Driver | CNC Router | Laser Machine | 3D Prin

    A 48V, 15 amp supply is probably enough for these, but 20 amp would give you a little headroom.

    This should save you a fair amount of $$ over the larger motors.
    You can read a lot of threads here about people regretting their purchase of large motors. Bigger is not always better.

    The drives you have are not the best, but they'll work.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    I want to be able to "push the envelope" on this machine to be able to make some pretty aggressive cuts in wood. I need to be able to cut with a 1/2" endmill at a depth of at least 1/2" and I want to be able to do it at cutting speeds of 200 to 300 ipm or more if possible. Please let me know if I am way off base here. I promise I won't be offended. I am not smart enough for that.

    I will be running a 3.5 hp Porter Cable router spinning at 20,000 rpm's.
    I think your Porter Cable will be the limiting factor here.
    If it's a VS 7518 ,they have a nasty habit of not being able to maintain a constant speed under variable loads, so they tend to slow down, and speed up a lot.
    A chinese spindle will be quieter, smaller, and have more power.

    Also, 20,000 rpm is much too high for 300ipm. You'll burn up bits very quickly. 12,000 to 14,000 would be better, but you'll need to do some testing. You might find that you get some nasty tearout when hogging out that much material.
    I'd recommend a roughing bit, which will probably let you take even deeper cuts, or faster cuts. They cut like butter, and are a lot quieter too.
    https://www.vortextool.com/index.cfm...713E88D3C82888
    A downcut may work better, though, by causing less tearout.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    ============================

    Thank you Gerry and Nate for your input on this project so far. I think I have decided on the motors I will be using.


    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I don't have any experience with rack and pinion, but I think a 640oz motor is more than enough for a machine that size, and should give you quicker accel and faster rapids, due to the much lower inductance. This should save you a fair amount of $$ over the larger motors. You can read a lot of threads here about people regretting their purchase of large motors. Bigger is not always better.

    As per Gerry's recommendation I will scale down the size of the motors to 906 oz-in. This is halfway between the motors I originally wanted and the recommendation from Gerry (640 oz-in motors). I like the KL-34H295-43-8A motors that Automation Technologies sells. This motor runs at 6.1 amps with .35 ohms resistance and 3.3 mh inductance. This is half the inductance of the larger motor so this motor should run pretty fast. Also...looking at the torque curves for this motor compared to the larger 1200 oz-in motor this motor puts out more torque in the 500 to 1500 rpm range than the larger motor does. I think Gerry is right when he states..."Bigger is not always better".


    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I think your Porter Cable will be the limiting factor here. If it's a VS 7518 ,they have a nasty habit of not being able to maintain a constant speed under variable loads, so they tend to slow down, and speed up a lot. A chinese spindle will be quieter, smaller, and have more power.

    Gerry...can you point me in the direction of a Chinese Spindle? The Porter Cable router I am currently using is a 7518 which is 3.5 hp (around 2.5 kw). Do you think I should stay at that level or try to find a more powerful spindle. One problem I found when looking at spindles in the past is that I do not want to create a complicated system. I would like to find a good spindle that runs on 110 volts AC that is air cooled not water cooled. Most spindles run on 220 volts AC. I don't really want a lot of "stuff" around that I have to constantly watch and maintain. I would like as simple system as possible. So far I have not found a spindle that meets these requirements. That is why I originally opted for the Porter Cable router.


    Quote Originally Posted by FineLineAuto View Post
    As far as the voltage is concerned, 32 times the square root of the inductance is a rule of thumb but it's not absolutely required. 48V, 60V, or 72V power supplies would do just fine. If you use 72V, use one 8A supply per motor. If you use 60V, use one 10A supply per 2 motors. If you use 47V, use one 12.5A supply per 2 motors.

    Nate...your suggestion that I run each motor driver on it's own power supply if I am running them at the higher voltage is a little confusing to me. Is this because I would be hard pressed to find a power supply large enough to run all the motors at the higher voltage or if I did find one it would be very expensive? Do you have any suggestions as to power supplies for the new motor selection (KL-34H295-438A 906 oz-in) I have made? I still want to run the motors at their optimum levels which I take to mean max voltage and max amperage although I am not sure this is the correct way to set this system up. I am still thinking I will reuse the KL-9082 motor drivers from my old machine for this one...at least for now.


    Does anyone else have any input as far as power to drive these motors at their optimum level goes?
    Thanks again to everyone out there willing to give their time and expertise to those of us who are "still in the dark".

    ==============================

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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    If you want to stay with 110V, then you'll be limited to the 7518.
    A PC 7518 is not really 3+ HP. It's closer to 2HP, which is the most you can get from 110V and 15 amps.
    IF you want something more powerful, you need to go to 220V.

    I still think that the smaller motors are a better choice.
    Both motors use the same number of amps. If one has 50% more torque, then something has to give. That's RPM. The smaller motor should be faster than the larger motor.
    The problem with the internet is knowing who to listen to.
    Nate has his opinion. I have mine.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Quote Originally Posted by cavemancarver View Post
    ============================

    Gerry...can you point me in the direction of a Chinese Spindle? The Porter Cable router I am currently using is a 7518 which is 3.5 hp (around 2.5 kw). Do you think I should stay at that level or try to find a more powerful spindle. One problem I found when looking at spindles in the past is that I do not want to create a complicated system. I would like to find a good spindle that runs on 110 volts AC that is air cooled not water cooled. Most spindles run on 220 volts AC. I don't really want a lot of "stuff" around that I have to constantly watch and maintain. I would like as simple system as possible. So far I have not found a spindle that meets these requirements. That is why I originally opted for the Porter Cable router.

    ==============================
    The PC 7518 rating of 3.5 HP is probably the 'marketing' rating. Routers are likely closer to their advertised rating than shop vacs but I doubt they actually put out as much HP as is advertised (if my shop vac truly put out 6.5 HP I probably couldn't pick it up!).

    One thing to watch for on the smaller spindles, like the 110 V you mentioned, is that you may not get ER20 collets but will be limited to ER25, at least on the spindles I've seen anyway. I'm not sure you can get a 2.2 kW spindle in 110 V but if you can find one it will have more power than the router you're using now and probably have less runout on the spindle shaft than the PC router..

    My $0.02

    David

    Edit: I was typing while Gerry was posting, sorry for the duplication on the PC power.

    David
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    Er25 collets have larger capacity than er20. I think you meant er 16?


    Quote Originally Posted by difalkner View Post
    The PC 7518 rating of 3.5 HP is probably the 'marketing' rating. Routers are likely closer to their advertised rating than shop vacs but I doubt they actually put out as much HP as is advertised (if my shop vac truly put out 6.5 HP I probably couldn't pick it up!).

    One thing to watch for on the smaller spindles, like the 110 V you mentioned, is that you may not get ER20 collets but will be limited to ER25, at least on the spindles I've seen anyway. I'm not sure you can get a 2.2 kW spindle in 110 V but if you can find one it will have more power than the router you're using now and probably have less runout on the spindle shaft than the PC router..

    My $0.02

    David

    Edit: I was typing while Gerry was posting, sorry for the duplication on the PC power.




  16. #16

    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    If you want to stay with 110V, then you'll be limited to the 7518.
    A PC 7518 is not really 3+ HP. It's closer to 2HP, which is the most you can get from 110V and 15 amps.
    IF you want something more powerful, you need to go to 220V.

    I still think that the smaller motors are a better choice.
    Both motors use the same number of amps. If one has 50% more torque, then something has to give. That's RPM. The smaller motor should be faster than the larger motor.
    The problem with the internet is knowing who to listen to.
    Nate has his opinion. I have mine.
    Ger, You are right that there is a torque to speed tradeoff. 1200 oz-in is probably overkill from a torque perspective. However, I don't think the cutting or rapid feedrates would be limited from what we specify. The 900 oz-in that was selected is a good in-between choice. You'll definitely like it better than the 1200 for this machine.

    Regarding my power supply sizing, it was based off the the amperage that the power supply could provide. The 72V was only 8A and therefore could only support 1 of the 6A motors. The 60V is 10A which is enough amperage to run 2 motors.

    Fine Line Automation
    www.finelineautomation.com


  17. #17

    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Quote Originally Posted by difalkner View Post
    The PC 7518 rating of 3.5 HP is probably the 'marketing' rating. Routers are likely closer to their advertised rating than shop vacs but I doubt they actually put out as much HP as is advertised (if my shop vac truly put out 6.5 HP I probably couldn't pick it up!).

    One thing to watch for on the smaller spindles, like the 110 V you mentioned, is that you may not get ER20 collets but will be limited to ER25, at least on the spindles I've seen anyway. I'm not sure you can get a 2.2 kW spindle in 110 V but if you can find one it will have more power than the router you're using now and probably have less runout on the spindle shaft than the PC router..

    My $0.02

    David

    Edit: I was typing while Gerry was posting, sorry for the duplication on the PC power.
    I agree you don't want ER16 collets in this application. The OP wants to use 1/2" bits and ER16 won't take those. You need at least ER20.

    Fine Line Automation
    www.finelineautomation.com


  18. #18
    Community Moderator difalkner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ericclinedinst View Post
    Er25 collets have larger capacity than er20. I think you meant er 16?
    Yep, that is exactly what I meant! That's what I get for responding to something while eating breakfast and trying to help my wife get out the door to work.

    David
    Romans 3:23
    CurlyWoodShop - www.etsy.com/shop/CurlyWoodShop
    David Falkner - www.youtube.com/user/difalkner
    difalkner - www.instagram.com/difalkner


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    Default

    It's all good! We've all been there before. :-)

    So. Do you mind sharing the info on your water pump David? Ie. Where you got it. Model etc?



    Quote Originally Posted by difalkner View Post
    Yep, that is exactly what I meant! That's what I get for responding to something while eating breakfast and trying to help my wife get out the door to work.




  20. #20
    Community Moderator difalkner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Buy or Build...That Is The Question

    Quote Originally Posted by ericclinedinst View Post
    It's all good! We've all been there before. :-)

    So. Do you mind sharing the info on your water pump David? Ie. Where you got it. Model etc?
    Here ya' go -

    12Vdc brushless 500 L/H pump

    David
    Romans 3:23
    CurlyWoodShop - www.etsy.com/shop/CurlyWoodShop
    David Falkner - www.youtube.com/user/difalkner
    difalkner - www.instagram.com/difalkner


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Buy or Build...That Is The Question

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