Buy or Build...That Is The Question

[cavemancarver]

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Nate at Fineline Automation tells me the machine shipped out yesterday so I am hoping to receive it by the end of the week. I ordered the machine Friday and it ships on the following Tuesday after changing the Nema 23 motor mounts to Nema 34 motor mounts...Can't beat that. Thanks Nate. I am definitely looking forward to receiving it. Now all I have to do is build a table, buy motors and electronics, wire the machine etc, etc, etc.

I have an old steel military table, built in the 50's, that would have been perfect for this machine...very heavy solid steel etc...but it was not wide enough or long enough so I will be building a new table specific for this machine. I will probably buy some 2" square tubing with a 1/8" wall thickness and weld up a good sturdy table over the weekend. Believe it or not but here in Arizona steel is pretty cheap. Wood prices seem to keep going up but the price of steel seems to be pretty constant. If David sees this post maybe he can comment on the table he built from wood. It looks pretty impressive and I have been wondering how it is performing. Is it as sturdy as you had hoped it would be?

I have settled on the 906 oz-in motors (KL34H295-43-8A) from Automation Technology. I have been comparing the 640 oz-in motor Gerry suggested to both the 906 oz-in and the 1200 oz-in motors and the 906 oz-in motor maintains more torque at pretty much any rpm than any of the other motors. I would never have guessed that to be true but Gerry is correct when he states "bigger is not always better". Thanks Gerry...your comments caused me to spend a lot more time and care researching and choosing the motors and I think I will be much better off in the long run. Also, the 906 oz-in motor has a pretty low inductance of 3.3 mH so it should also run pretty fast. The smaller 640 oz-in motor has an inductance of 2.1 mH which is better but since the 906 oz-in motor maintains higher torque than the 640 oz-in motor I decided to go with that one.

As far as motor drivers and power supplies goes I am still thinking about that. I definitely want to run the motors pretty close to their rated amperage, which is 6.1 amps, so I am thinking of providing each driver with it's own power supply...which is what Nate at Fineline Automation suggests. The problem is those power supplies are $110.00 each and if I am going to spend that kind of money I might as well go with one of the 4 axis Gecko setups which have the power supplies built in. That might cost me a little more money but I will end up with good quality drives and also save a lot of time without having to build a box and wiring everything not to mention the likely troubleshooting I will need to do. Any suggestions here would be welcome.

Again...thanks to everyone out there for letting me tap into your experience and knowledge.
More to come.........

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[FineLineAuto]

====================

Nate at Fineline Automation tells me the machine shipped out yesterday so I am hoping to receive it by the end of the week. I ordered the machine Friday and it ships on the following Tuesday after changing the Nema 23 motor mounts to Nema 34 motor mounts...Can't beat that. Thanks Nate. I am definitely looking forward to receiving it. Now all I have to do is build a table, buy motors and electronics, wire the machine etc, etc, etc.

I have an old steel military table, built in the 50's, that would have been perfect for this machine...very heavy solid steel etc...but it was not wide enough or long enough so I will be building a new table specific for this machine. I will probably buy some 2" square tubing with a 1/8" wall thickness and weld up a good sturdy table over the weekend. Believe it or not but here in Arizona steel is pretty cheap. Wood prices seem to keep going up but the price of steel seems to be pretty constant. If David sees this post maybe he can comment on the table he built from wood. It looks pretty impressive and I have been wondering how it is performing. Is it as sturdy as you had hoped it would be?

I have settled on the 906 oz-in motors (KL34H295-43-8A) from Automation Technology. I have been comparing the 640 oz-in motor Gerry suggested to both the 906 oz-in and the 1200 oz-in motors and the 906 oz-in motor maintains more torque at pretty much any rpm than any of the other motors. I would never have guessed that to be true but Gerry is correct when he states "bigger is not always better". Thanks Gerry...your comments caused me to spend a lot more time and care researching and choosing the motors and I think I will be much better off in the long run. Also, the 906 oz-in motor has a pretty low inductance of 3.3 mH so it should also run pretty fast. The smaller 640 oz-in motor has an inductance of 2.1 mH which is better but since the 906 oz-in motor maintains higher torque than the 640 oz-in motor I decided to go with that one.

As far as motor drivers and power supplies goes I am still thinking about that. I definitely want to run the motors pretty close to their rated amperage, which is 6.1 amps, so I am thinking of providing each driver with it's own power supply...which is what Nate at Fineline Automation suggests. The problem is those power supplies are $110.00 each and if I am going to spend that kind of money I might as well go with one of the 4 axis Gecko setups which have the power supplies built in. That might cost me a little more money but I will end up with good quality drives and also save a lot of time without having to build a box and wiring everything not to mention the likely troubleshooting I will need to do. Any suggestions here would be welcome.

Again...thanks to everyone out there for letting me tap into your experience and knowledge.
More to come.........

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Your machine got picked up today and FedEx said 4 days for delivery.

Regarding the supplies: I would run 2 motors per 60V/10A supply. That's 2 supplies.

What motion control board are you using? The Ethernet Smoothstepper is a good choice.

[ger21]

............................ the 906 oz-in motor maintains more torque at pretty much any rpm than any of the other motors. .................................................. ........ The smaller 640 oz-in motor has an inductance of 2.1 mH which is better but since the 906 oz-in motor maintains higher torque than the 640 oz-in motor I decided to go with that one.

Be aware that those torque charts are really only valid when using the same drives, and same voltage that was used with the charts.

I still think that the 640 would be better, but unless you do a side by side comparison test, it's almost impossible to know for sure.

[difalkner]

====================

If David sees this post maybe he can comment on the table he built from wood. It looks pretty impressive and I have been wondering how it is performing. Is it as sturdy as you had hoped it would be?

The problem is those power supplies are $110.00 each and if I am going to spend that kind of money I might as well go with one of the 4 axis Gecko setups which have the power supplies built in. That might cost me a little more money but I will end up with good quality drives and also save a lot of time without having to build a box and wiring everything not to mention the likely troubleshooting I will need to do. Any suggestions here would be welcome.

Again...thanks to everyone out there for letting me tap into your experience and knowledge.
More to come.........

=================

I am very pleased with the wooden stand, very sturdy. I can't budge it in the X direction and it moves less than half inch at the top of the rails in the Y direction if I have the gantry moving quickly and stop it while jogging. When I flattened the spoil board there was a lot back and forth on X then incremental indexing on Y and I don't recall seeing it move when I did that (cutting at 250 ipm). But like I said somewhere, maybe here, I'm a woodworker so it just made sense that I would build a wooden stand. I can weld but don't have the tools or setup for doing much with metal.

On the 4 axis Gecko driver my only reservation would be that if one axis goes out do you have to replace all 4 or is it modular and you can replace one only? Just curious because I don't know...

David

[awerby]

The Gecko G-540 would be a better choice with the 640 oz-in motors than with the 906 ones, which want about 60v supplied. That driver-board tops out at 50v. It has a breakout board built-in, but the power supply is extra. I don't think you really need to use more than one, though, since it's rare for all the motors to be drawing maximum amps at the same time. If you're worried about it, get a 15-amp supply rather than a 10-amp. You can replace blown drives individually in the G-540, but if you're using the 906 motors, then I'd suggest getting 3 Gecko 203V drives and a breakout board instead.

[FineLineAuto]

The Gecko G-540 would be a better choice with the 640 oz-in motors than with the 906 ones, which want about 60v supplied. That driver-board tops out at 50v. It has a breakout board built-in, but the power supply is extra. I don't think you really need to use more than one, though, since it's rare for all the motors to be drawing maximum amps at the same time. If you're worried about it, get a 15-amp supply rather than a 10-amp. You can replace blown drives individually in the G-540, but if you're using the 906 motors, then I'd suggest getting 3 Gecko 203V drives and a breakout board instead.

The G540 won't work. The drivers can only supply 3.5A of current.

[awerby]

The G540 won't work. The drivers can only supply 3.5A of current.

Good point. The current requirement of those motors hadn't come up, but since they draw over 6 amps, the 203V drives would be what you'd need.

[cavemancarver]

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Regarding my power supply sizing, it was based off the the amperage that the power supply could provide. The 72V was only 8A and therefore could only support 1 of the 6A motors. The 60V is 10A which is enough amperage to run 2 motors.

Well...since I have decided on the motors I am now thinking about which power supply to get but first I need to understand ore about how these motors work. If I have a 72 volt 7 amp power supply and the motor driver is set to provide 6 amps to the motor will the motor just take what it needs as far as voltage goes?

I do know that amperage equals torque but I don't really know how the voltage works with these stepper motors. From what I gather you would be hard pressed to burn up one of these motors by supplying too much voltage. It seems that as long as the motor driver is set to the proper amperage for the motor the voltage just does not matter as long as you don't go over the rated voltage of the motor driver. If that is the I could drive the motors with either a 24 volt 7 amp power supply or a 72 volt 7 amp power supply and get the same performance from either of these setups. Am I correct here or am I way off base?

I am now pretty much ready to go ahead and buy all of the electronics I need to get this machine up and running as soon as I settle on the power supply question. Once I pull the trigger on that purchase I will list here the components I will be using.

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[ger21]

Without looking up the specs, I'm guessing that the rated voltage of those motors is between 3-6 volt. You can run them at the rated voltage, and they will have the rated torque at 0 rpm (holding torque).
As rpm's increase, the current can't flow through the motor fast enough to maintain that torque. So, you use a higher voltage, which has the effect of forcing more current through the motor, which maintains the torque at higher rpms.
The faster you go, the more voltage you need to maintain that torque at higher rpm.
Basically, voltage is proportional to usable speed. If you can run at a given speed at 24V, you should be able to run 3x faster at 72V.
At some point, you reach a point of diminishing returns, and the additional voltage will cause motor heating, without increasing performance.

[cavemancarver]

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OK Everyone...

My new Saturn Series 2 x 4 machine arrived yesterday with no problems. When I took off the protective (really thick 5/8" cardboard) cover I can honestly say I was impressed. Looking at photos of the machine online is one thing but you can't get the impact of this machine until you actually see it in person. This is one massive machine for the size and I am really looking forward to getting this thing up and running. Fineline Automation did a great job putting these machines together. Quality all the way. Thanks again Nate.

So...after actually being able to put my hands on this machine, and realizing just how massive it is I have decided to go whole hog on all of the components, electrical and otherwise. By "whole hog" I mean I have decided to go with high quality components and electronics and end up with a really good machine that I will be able to push to the limits. For a while there I was going to "cheap out" and cut a few corners on lower quality components but now I realize I will probably be happier with a high quality machine overall that I can depend on to run consistently without glitches popping up every week or two.

There are still a few decisions I need to make on components so I won't be listing them here just yet but I will get the final list up within the next day or two.

Thanks again everyone for all of your input so far.

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[difalkner]

That's great it arrived - that box is awesome! I cut all the panels into large pieces and will use them in the shop for quick dust shields or prototyping components, etc.

Post photos soon!

David

[cavemancarver]

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I know it has been a few days since my last post but my girlfriend and I took a "mini-vacation" out of town for a while. Since I got back I have been busy getting the new machine to my house and unloaded and into the garage. I rented a Penske truck with a lift gate and the job only took an hour so I got away for less than $50.00. It was only a 20 mile round trip so it was worth it.


Here I am getting it off the truck.

Over the weekend I decided to build a table for this machine and my final decision was to go ahead and build it from lumber. I know, I said in an earlier post, I wanted to do the table in steel but after careful measuring and designing I decided lumber would be just as good and for a lot less money. There for a while I thought steel was pretty cheap but it turns out that steel is pretty expensive when you need a lot of it. Anyway, check out the photos below to see the frame of the table coming together. I still have a few pieces to put in and of course the outside skin and top but you will get the idea.


Here is the initial layout of the table top.
I am building it upside down to make sure the top is even.


I don't have a table saw so I am doing all of the cutting and fitting using a circular saw.
Here are the wide kerfs in one of the legs. The legs are 4 x 6 lumber from Home Depot.


Here are all four legs with the wide slots cut.


Starting on the narrow kerfs .


Finished with all of the slots on all four legs.


Getting ready to put it all together using my garage floor as a flat surface.


Shot of the basic frame. I still have a few pieces to put in but you get the idea.

The table is 44.5" wide by 63" long by 30 inches high. It is made from 4 x 6 lumber for the legs and 2 x 6 lumber for all of the cross pieces.
It was put together with 4" long deck screws where the 2 x 6's meet in the corners and with 3" long deck screws everywhere else.
All joints were also glued together with Titebond 3 wood glue. The joints were glued, clamped in place and then screwed together with
the deck screws. The frame turned out almost perfectly square and it does not wobble at all. I am very happy with it so far.

After all is said and done I can tell you this is one very solid table.

I plan to "skin" it on the outside as well as on the inside with .75" mdf to give it more rigidity and weight. After that it's on to sealing and painting to make it last forever and also look good while waiting for forever to arrive. I will post more photos of the table after the weekend when I will have more time to work on it.

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[FineLineAuto]

Looks great. Did the machine arrive without damage?


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[cavemancarver]

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Looks great. Did the machine arrive without damage?

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Your idea of using the "Ox Box" as a shipping crate worked well for this machine. There were only a few small scrapes on the sides of the box but no actual punctures. It looks like the machine did not shift any during shipping either. All in all shipping went off without a hitch with no damage I can tell at this point. I will know more when I get the motors and electronics setup and actually jog the machine for the first time but I am guessing I will have no problems there.

By the way...the more I look at this machine the happier I become. I can't wait to get this thing up and running and cutting down some trees.

Nate:

Have you been able to ship my last order of motors, electronics, cables etc? Hoping to get everything together before the Thanksgiving 4-day weekend when I can spend all weekend putting this together.

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[FineLineAuto]

Thanks for the feedback on the shipping. We have been extraordinarily happy with the ox box crates as well. They have a 4000 lbs stacking capacity and are just as tough as OSB sides but at 1/4 of the weight.

Your order should dropship today. I would expect to see it by Thursday this week.

We tested the machine in house


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[cavemancarver]

==============================

OK Everyone...today I finally finished the frame for the new Saturn Series 2 x 4 router. This is the sturdiest table I ever built and I do think it will last pretty much forever. I am still debating whether or not to put some 3/4" MDF on the outside to dress it up. If I do decide to put MDF on the outside it will be purely cosmetic since I don't think it needs any more support from racking or otherwise shaking while in use. The frame, so far, weighs pretty close to 200 pounds and after I put on the MDF top and a sheet of MDF for a shelf it will probably come in at 250 pounds. Anyway...below are a few photos for your enjoyment. Let me know what you think.


Photo of the front of the finished frame.


Angled view of the finished frame


Side view of the finished frame.

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[difalkner]

That's a great looking stand! Don't be surprised if it has a little movement on the Y axis, though. The stand I built is very strong but not near as heavy as yours and likely not as stout at all. But I can't move it in the X direction and a friend who has 50 pounds on me can't get it to budge, either. I added some diagonal bracing in the Y direction but even with that when the gantry stops in the Y direction there's a slight bit of movement. But I view it like a bridge being able to sway in the wind or the wings of a jet being able to flex slightly. I could make the stand stiffer and stiffer but reach a point where it might break but the way it is now there's a slight give and I think that's better (for my stand, anyway).

Your stand looks much more rigid than mine so what I'm suggesting is that if you have slight movement when the gantry starts/stops rather than try to stop the movement I'd let it ride for a while. If you put the MDF on it probably won't sway at all but I also don't think this beast of a stand will break down.

That's my $0.02 on what appears to be a very well built stand! Good job!

[FineLineAuto]

Great job on the stand. Should be great for the machine.


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[cavemancarver]

Great job on the stand. Should be great for the machine.

That's a great looking stand! Don't be surprised if it has a little movement on the Y axis, though. The stand I built is very strong but not near as heavy as yours and likely not as stout at all. But I can't move it in the X direction and a friend who has 50 pounds on me can't get it to budge, either. I added some diagonal bracing in the Y direction but even with that when the gantry stops in the Y direction there's a slight bit of movement. But I view it like a bridge being able to sway in the wind or the wings of a jet being able to flex slightly. I could make the stand stiffer and stiffer but reach a point where it might break but the way it is now there's a slight give and I think that's better (for my stand, anyway).

Your stand looks much more rigid than mine so what I'm suggesting is that if you have slight movement when the gantry starts/stops rather than try to stop the movement I'd let it ride for a while. If you put the MDF on it probably won't sway at all but I also don't think this beast of a stand will break down.

That's my $0.02 on what appears to be a very well built stand! Good job!

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Thank's guys...A lot of work went into the stand and I really don't intend to make it any stiffer. I do plan on putting a large rubber mat on the MDF top for the machine to sit on and also 4" x 6" pieces of the same rubber matting on the bottom of the legs as feet. This will help in the leveling of the stand and machine and also help in absorbing some of the vibration generated when cutting.

I was at my local feed store a few weeks ago and I saw rubber mats for horse stalls that are 4 feet by 6 feet by 3/4" that would be perfect for this use. I checked out the rubber itself and it is pretty stiff stuff but does have some "give" to it. The quality of the rubber was pretty good and the price was right at $20.00 so I went ahead and bought one. The price on these mats usually run $45.00 to $50.00 so $20.00 was a good buy. I think this rubber mat will work well since it is made for horses to stand on. After all...horses weigh in the "neigh" borhood of 1,000 pounds or more. Sorry, I couldn't help myself there.

Anyway...thanks again for all your input. I should be getting my motors and electronics tomorrow so I will keep you posted when that happens. I will also list all of the components I will be using for this machine for those of you who are interested in that part of this project. Until then...

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[cavemancarver]

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Just a quick update on the building of the table for the new machine.

I know it's going a little slower than I planned but it seems that is the way it always goes. There is always something going on other than whatever I am working on that takes time away from the project.

Anyway, I am almost finished with the table. I did decide to go ahead and put a "skin" on the frame. I wanted to do it now because it probably would never have been done if I started running the new machine on just the frame and I wanted a "finished" table for this new machine. A few extra weeks won't hurt anyone. My new goal is to get this machine up and running before the Holidays arrive.

So I decided to skin the table with 3/4" MDF. I know it makes the table very heavy and it's harder to work with than 1/2" or 5/8" but the 1/2" MDF seemed too light and thin and the 5/8" was just $2.00 less than the 3/4" so for the extra $2.00 I thought it best to just go with the 3/4" MDF. I think 3/4" gives me more value for the money.

So go ahead and take a look at the photos below and let me know what you think.



Unfinished Table - Front View




Unfinished Table - Left View




Unfinished Table - Right View


As you can see the table is almost finished. I plan to complete it this weekend. All that is left is to trim all of the edges with a flush laminate router bit then put on the top and fill in all of the screw holes with glue and sawdust and then do some sanding before painting the whole thing inside and out. I will probably build a couple of drawers at the top of the cut outs to hold my router bits and other misc tools but that will be a project for another day.

I think it is going to be a beautiful table when I am finished...and yes I am looking forward to finally finishing this monster.

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