Cleaning encoders?


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    Question Cleaning encoders?

    Hi, might I say first off that this site is fantastic! well anyway back to business. (I am at work) I read a post a while back on here about cleaning encoders to fix some servo alarms a guy was having problems with. I am having the same problems. I am working on a strippit 1250s turret punch and my x axis is acting up. I wanted to try to clean the encoders like one guy suggested but am not sure how to safely remove and clean them. I am only famaliar with the yellow top dc servo on our amada. The only thing I had to do there was align the turret by rotating the resolver. The part directly under the motor cap (red cap) i see has a small pcb on it with a few variable pots on the board and a fairly large number of wires connected via a plug. There was only a pressed on plastic cover over this that I simply pull off. Any help on this would be much appreciated and if you need the motor #'s I can get them. The controller is a 0-P series B.
    Thank You

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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    If these are red top motors, they are AC motors, if you remove the encoder, although it is keyed, make sure you mark it where original tabs are as this is also the commutation device.
    If you can get in there with a Q-tip and de-natured alcohol, wipe the disk off as best as possible, If you are adventurous you can carefully lift back the top board and clean the photo cells, mark where the board is, but IRC, you may have to unsolder the wires on this model.
    Take care as they are expensive encoders, and cannot be subbed.
    The encoder is secured by a 4mm screw down the centre.
    Al..

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    I knew it! That is, it would be you that would reply with a fantastic answer. You are the reason I had our IT person unlock this site and why I signed up to use the forum. I may not have gone to tech college, But only being twenty five and working for at least two hours a day for the four years I was in high school in our electronics class with one of the greatest teachers I have ever known, building robots and incorporating them in fully automated working cells. I was able to get a maintenance job at a fabricating facility. We have four press brakes all with cnc back gauges and four mechanical turret punches two amadas and two strippits all of course with different types of fanuc controllers yeah that sucks, but I have found some great help from your old posts and from the other guys here as well. I plan on also trying to help those who might come across some of the problems I already encountered. Well with all that said Thank You very much for all your help and to you!
    Dustin



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    Thanks! and good luck.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Fanuc Red Top Servo replacement

    Hi,
    Does anyone have a servo replacement for the FANUC drives used with the Red top AC motors ? There is a big market for drive replacment of these old drives.

    I want to keep the motors and encoders. I can convert the Fanuc GRAYSCALE signals for the commutation. Can convert this signal to a resolver type sinusoidal output or possibly something else.
    If anyone needs the grayscale decoding for the Encoder, type A860-0310-T111-10000P then I can help with that. Its a 10000PPR 5v TTL encoder with commutation output. Drive power varies from 5.8 to 37 Amps (stall) and 2.9 to 24.5 Nm Torque.



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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    What type of drives are you looking for?
    Once the commutation is converted then the choice is open, I have been using Advanced Motion but most are analogue control.
    What form is the decoding you have? source code for a PIC etc?
    There is a member here that was selling convertors for the red cap encoders.
    In my case I replaced the encoder with a Hall effect type.
    Al.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cleaning encoders?-fanucenc-pdf  
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
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    Hi,
    I have a Strippit FC1000R III punch. The drives are no good but the AC motors and encoders are all good. The problem is there are 5 of them so I do not want to replace the whole servo system. I do not have the Fanuc serial numbers of the drives to hand. I am basically looking for any drive that can replace the Fanuc ones. I have given the Nm and power figures so as long as the drives can output this then it will be OK. I am going to use a microprocessor to decode the grayscale. I need a drive that can take a serial, pwm or similar signal that I can generate. I have seen the HALL effect conversion boards but because I need 5 for the 5 axes I will do this myself to save some money.
    Also, it gives me more flexibility because I can change the signal to suit the drive. A lot of drives use the resolver output on the Motor for commutation so maybe this is the best signal ?
    I look forward to your reply.



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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    It will also depend on what type of controller you intend using to replace the Fanuc, I have used Galil Motion primarily so it allows using non-intelligent drives with hall type input as the PID loop is closed back to the control, the AMC BLDC drives go up to 100amp peak current, ±10vdc analogue control.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    I use the Delta Tau Turbo PMAC2 so this does the PID very well. I can choose between PWM and DAC +-10v. I normally choose the +-10v with TTL encoder feedback.
    Here is a chart of the axis information for the current system.

    Axes__ RPM___ Torque (stall)_ AMPS (stall) __Voltage (AC)

    X_____2000____ 8.8nM_____ 15.1_________ 97___________
    Y _____2500 ____24.5 ______37 __________122__________
    T _____2000 ____5.9 _______6.8__________ 110__________
    C1____ 3000 ____2.9 _______5.8 __________94___________
    C2 ____3000 ____2.9 _______5.8 __________94___________



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    Hi Al,
    You state that you have used the AMC BLDC drives on Fanuc motors ? I downloaded the spec sheet. It says they are for brushless DC motors. Aren't the Fanuc red top motors AC brushless ?
    It says this on the motor :
    GE Fanuc AC servo motor.
    Model 6L
    Type R06B-0563-B061#7000
    Torque (stall) 8.8nM, Amps (stall) 15.1, EXCIT PERM MAGNET
    2000 RPM, 8 poles, 3 phase
    Volt 97V PULSE CODER
    There is also another motor that is more powerful and is a 7L type :
    7L-A068--571-8061#7000
    Torque (stall) 24.5nM, 37A (stall), 122V, 2500rpm

    Any advice would be appreciated



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    Quote Originally Posted by Applicam View Post
    Hi Al,
    You state that you have used the AMC BLDC drives on Fanuc motors ? I downloaded the spec sheet. It says they are for brushless DC motors. Aren't the Fanuc red top motors AC brushless ?
    The Fanuc motors are used in the AC servo mode, they are constructed virtually the same as BLDC, you either have to replace the encoder with a BLDC commutation type or use a convertor, Jon Elson has made a convertor for these and I also read on another site that someone has made a convertor also.
    But it looks like you have hi-res absolute encoders 10,000p/rev, if so the only recourse is to replace the encoder and align the hall pulses accordingly with a double beam 'scope.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Applicam View Post
    Hi,
    Does anyone have a servo replacement for the FANUC drives used with the Red top AC motors ? There is a big market for drive replacment of these old drives.

    I want to keep the motors and encoders. I can convert the Fanuc GRAYSCALE signals for the commutation. Can convert this signal to a resolver type sinusoidal output or possibly something else.
    If anyone needs the grayscale decoding for the Encoder, type A860-0310-T111-10000P then I can help with that. Its a 10000PPR 5v TTL encoder with commutation output. Drive power varies from 5.8 to 37 Amps (stall) and 2.9 to 24.5 Nm Torque.
    I'd love to see the workaround for the grayscale tinkering around, I had a small motor running off a battery with a few and gates trying to get the switching right off the c1/c2/c4/c8 channels to fire the proper transistors to the windings- it ran but had a slight cogging 8 times/rev... didnt mess with it much, but was kinda interesting. still dont understand why c1/c2/c4 are about straight binary, but the c8 is a 180 inverted c4...assume c4 is 4 in one direction, c8 is 4 in the other, but dunno...know the idea was to change only one bit at a time for signal security, but still seems weird.

    if you could just convert it to a 'hall effect' similar output, theres a lot of drives out there that might be ok...
    we had some from 'servo dynamics' that were cheap, ran similar size/voltage motors, required hall feedback- they allow a lot of flexibility on current/voltage that could probably run fanuc. dont think hall emulation will be as ripple free as Fanucs setup, but should work...

    We had a guy at Control Techniques working on a grayscale firing setup- but in the end if I recall correctly, they went back to their sensorless setup- lots of folks these days do that, but at powerup, you have to 'tease' the windings for the drive to synch up- pretty undesirable for most machines- and forget it if its on a gravity axis. we had some sensorless drives(dont recall the brand) on some baldor servos, run by a P-Mac, they had a lot of trouble with permanently demagging the servo during bootup sync- think it was just setup wrong, but it kinda soured me on the whole concept.



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    Like I said, there is a couple of conversions out there, the PDF shows how Fanuc use the 4 bit binary to extrapolate a sine wave.
    Al.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cleaning encoders?-fanucenc-pdf  
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Re: Cleaning encoders?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin L View Post
    Hi, might I say first off that this site is fantastic! well anyway back to business. (I am at work) I read a post a while back on here about cleaning encoders to fix some servo alarms a guy was having problems with. I am having the same problems. I am working on a strippit 1250s turret punch and my x axis is acting up. I wanted to try to clean the encoders like one guy suggested but am not sure how to safely remove and clean them. I am only famaliar with the yellow top dc servo on our amada. The only thing I had to do there was align the turret by rotating the resolver. The part directly under the motor cap (red cap) i see has a small pcb on it with a few variable pots on the board and a fairly large number of wires connected via a plug. There was only a pressed on plastic cover over this that I simply pull off. Any help on this would be much appreciated and if you need the motor #'s I can get them. The controller is a 0-P series B.
    Thank You
    Did you ever open this servo and how did it go in the end?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    If these are red top motors, they are AC motors, if you remove the encoder, although it is keyed, make sure you mark it where original tabs are as this is also the commutation device.
    If you can get in there with a Q-tip and de-natured alcohol, wipe the disk off as best as possible, If you are adventurous you can carefully lift back the top board and clean the photo cells, mark where the board is, but IRC, you may have to unsolder the wires on this model.
    Take care as they are expensive encoders, and cannot be subbed.
    The encoder is secured by a 4mm screw down the centre.
    Al..
    I'm considering opening a anuc a06b-0313-b002 now. I get a not-ready signal when powering up the machine after moving it around some and when I disconnect the Z encoder cable it powers up fine. I also have a earth fault (500kohm phase-earth). I noticed water coming out of the power connector when removing it. The cable is good but the motor is not so next step is opening it to clean it some. The machine has been sitting for a unkown period so it could be damage inside it from the water. When opening the encoder I notice that you say pay attention to the mounting. If I dissasable the whole motor It's hard to know I hit the exact same spot for the encoder. Will it be a problem if I miss it by a few degrees or are these keys you mention making it only possible to mount it correct or 180 degrees wrong?



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    Default Re: Cleaning encoders?

    Usually there is only one way it goes on, maybe make a mark before dismantling it.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Re: Cleaning encoders?

    Will do, Thanks. To remove the whole servo is it just to loosen the four screws on the motor itself or is it usually fixed with a bit on the axle? This is for X axis mounted on the side of the table so if it’s fixed with a nut on the axle it looks complicated to remove.



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    Default Re: Cleaning encoders?

    There is generally a flex type coupling of some kind,
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Default Re: Cleaning encoders?

    Sounds like a lot of work to get access to that But nobody else is going to do it so it’s just to get started and get the hands dirty



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    Default Re: Cleaning encoders?

    The encoder is keyed on those, also marked with an arrow. They only fit back on in one direction.

    Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Cleaning encoders?

    I did this job today removing things. It was really nasty inside it and I'm really not sure that I will be able to save this one. I cleaned it the best I could and still it's very very rusty and I'm not sure how sensitive the eletronics are but I'm going to try it to see if it runs tomorrow.

    Adding some pictures here for reference if anyone else is going to open it up. The encoder is fixed with a umbraco in the center hole and 3x screws holding it to the cover. Those could be adjusted so when I removed them I made sure to mark every spot so I could get it back in the same orientation. I realized now that I have 3x options when screwing it back on putting it on the wrong spot so this could still go wrong lol :P O well I got the pictures for reference so should be ok.



    More in this thread about the rest of the servo job if anyone should come across this thread later.
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tree/3...ml#post2115030

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Cleaning encoders?-img_0044-jpg   Cleaning encoders?-img_0043-jpg   Cleaning encoders?-img_0045-jpg   Cleaning encoders?-img_0046-jpg  

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