Machine Tool Rebuild cost

[glovebox20]

Hello

I was wondering if anyone could give me a ball park figure on what it would cost tool update the controler, drives, boards on a milling machine with an Oi or simlar control.

1993 Komo VMC 50
Fanuc OM
120"x32"x32"
Cat 50
25 HP
6000 RPM
60 station twin swing arm tool changer (one on each side of splidle)
Liner ways on X,Y, & Z axes.

The machine weighs over 60,000 lbs and would proably require us to cut a hole in the side of the bulding to move it out. It also has the toughest Cat 50 spindle I ever seen, so it would be a shame just to throw it out in the bone yard. I thought updating the controler/drives might be a better option. It would be nice if it was somewhat user freindly to set up and mill circles round instead of egg shaped (.013" on 1.5" hole). The ways and ball screw seems to be in ok shape, at least good enough for what we use it for.

glovebox20

[fordav11]

We had a Mazak Powermaster 2500 a few years ago and retro-fitted a Fanuc 0T control into it. It was done entirely on-site so it should be possible to do it without moving your machine. We kept the same servos and motors etc.
The control + cost of installation was around AUD$30000

[underthetire]

Not sure how much a 0i is going to help with ease of use compared to a om. Egg shaped holes can be caused by excessive wear on the gibs, damaged turcite, etc. I would get a good service guy in first and see if he can find why it won't cut circles, then go from there. If you end up retrofitting something that large, I would expect 50K+ just for control,drives,motors, plus ~30K for labor. Our last large boring mill we had done was 300K for a total retrofit, not including any re-fitting.

[tc429]

I agree with underthetire...out of roundness is usually mechanical, on a big machine, pricey... get someone to look at it, check out backlash and axis kick, see if it just needs tweaked in...if its not severe, get a ballbar run on it to see exactly how bad things are.

if its older, with analog drives, I'd suggest(if you like to tinker) buy a scrap machine with a functional 0M-A, could probably find one for 2~4k thats mechanically shot but functional control, and re-retrofit it yourself...the zero is pretty easy to hook up, if you dont use the toolchanger, you could probably run a generic ladder just to make it run/cut... a random access toolchanger will need a ladder guy to sort out... if you have a plc capable maintenance guy, he might be able to put a generic plc to talk to a generic fanuc ladder...I could send you some prom files if you have access to a old eprom burner, the generic ladders we ran on A's at first just output bcd m/s/t code data, waited for fins- we used external plc's for a couple years till volumes justified buying the expensive programming equipment... if you hire a retrofitter, its gonna get pricey, if the things already broke, you cant hurt it right ?

if your axes/spindle use quadrature encoder feedback, and +/- 10 volt analog, then a 0M-A can drive them...only quirk about fanuc is the detect ratio was really limited- had to be some even number of pulse counts that work out to 2000/2500/3000 pulses per rev of the screw, or those numbers times .5,1,2 or 4 that can be a issue. the zero could run resolver/inductosyn, but Ive never done one, know they need special hardware.

[glovebox20]

Thanks for the replys.

I forgot to mention that this machine has Linear ways on X,Y,&Z and right now it's about .013" on a 1.5" hole. Try to get a bearing to press in there

Originally Posted by fordav11 We had a Mazak Powermaster 2500 a few years ago and retro-fitted a Fanuc 0T control into it. It was done entirely on-site so it should be possible to do it without moving your machine. We kept the same servos and motors etc. The control + cost of installation was around AUD$30000

Are you happy with the Mazak Retro fit? Was it worth while?


Could you get away with just updateing the controler and a barbell test? Even if it was a OM with 14" color screen?

Dose anyone know any Independent barbell testers?


glovebox20

[underthetire]

Yes I do . Too far for me. Just because it has linear guides, doesn't mean there is still not a mechanical problem, however I'm guessing more of a parameter/ tuning issue to be that far out in that small of diameter! You need to check servo error, and move each axis at a steady jog individually. They should all have the same error, or lag. I'm guessing a gain parameter was changed to compensate for some other issue. Be very very careful who you get to ball bar. I've seen things you wouldn't believe just so the guy calibrating could get a nice picture. One machine went to do a tool change after the calibration was done, just to have the servo coupling let go and bounce the spindle off the table. He decided to loosen the coupling because he was getting cyclic error on the ball-bar picture. You would have never seen that cyclic error in any cut.

A good calibration guy should be equipped at minimum with.
A good .00005 indictor
A spindle test bar 40/50 taper
A precision 5 sided square
A ballbar (personally, you could do without, it just makes it easier)

A ball bar is not the end all tool, it is simply an indicator of machine health.

[tc429]

is the z axis boxway? if so check for the backstraps being worn- the front pads usually have a lot more surface area, and the overhung load tends to wear out the tops of the backstrap- or keeper- gibs faster than the pads or the lateral gib...if so its easy to see, jog it down over a big block of wood, and take a 4~6 foot 4x4 and try prying up on the spindle- dont be shocked if the head moves what looksa like a mile...they just shimmed one up last week, only had .006, but to look at it, looked like the whole machine was falling apart...

usually if its worn Z keepers, if you use a singlepoint tool like a insert drill, feed in/feed out, the 'back' half of the hole cleans up on the way out, looks fine- but the front looks like crap.

if your z is ok, the next common issue is the ends of the linear bearings blow out...its caused by not pulling way covers and cleaning out periodically...we run aluminum wheels, tons of chips, what happens is chips find their way under the covers, in between the little wedges that lock the rails in, and when the bearings roll across them, the chip wedges between the steel wedge and plastic end, breaking it, balls roll out, suddenly the machine runs like its made out of Nerf... we had so much trouble with this, we either make full width keepers(but bolt holes can snag chips still) or simply remove them after torquing the new rails down...have had some really bad wrecks, have yet to see a rail scoot. think its SBC sells really inexpensive linears, we just did some at about 2k per axis on some 40" stroke x slides, about 1200 for a 24" y axis...
if theyve ran with balls out, good chance the screws are shot, or at least damaged...ours had split nuts, we just reloaded with new balls, reshimmed the nut halves for preload again, only costs about 1~200 bucks a screw and 3~4 hours labor- + installation time... if theyve ran long/loose enough to be pitted in the nut, no choice but replace...

the

[fordav11]

Originally Posted by glovebox20 Are you happy with the Mazak Retro fit? Was it worth while?

yes it's very nice compared to the 3000C. we have a couple of great (official) Fanuc techs here in my state, they can do almost anything

however your problem is not going to go away by replacing the control. the difference between 0 and 0i is negligible as far as operating and running is concerned. your machine is out of accuracy. your issue is mechanical not the controller. spend your money on repairing the machine (if possible) not on a new control.

[glovebox20]

Happy Holiday's. Hope everyone enjoyed there weekend.

I looked into the Komo more.

I put an indcator in the spindle and jog the machine around and came up with this:

When I hand jog the machine or program the machine to move, this is what I got.

Z axis: .0005" backlash
X axis: .0035" blacklash
Y axis: .0035" backlash, jumps this far when changing directions.

On the X and Z asis, the splindle didn't move until I jog or program the machine this far directions.

However, the Y axis jump an additional .0035" when changing directions. So maybe the Ways, ball screw are not as good as I though. Is there anyway I can adjust the backlash adjustment to make it better? Or adjusting the ways (linear, all axis) or ball screw. Or is this as good as it gets.

I am surprised on how much backlash I getting over the controler (Fanuc OM)when it comes to setup/operation of the machine. I can't get over the fact how some people enjoy inputing all there offset by hand instead of a pressing a button like on the newer controls. Or inputing the whole value in when you only want to add .005" to it. And that 9" monochrome screen is F***ing awesome, I love not being able to see my current machine postion when entering offsets, lol. And I never ever found it handy to edit Marco B at the control, that's what PC's are for. Copy & paste, not for me, I'll just retype everything, one adress at a time! I have a great idea, Lets build a machine that will last for several decades, and put the lowest level control on it available at that time.

Sorry about being a Dick about it. I'm just envious of people who don't have to run such a fine machine, day in and day out. I'm just trying to see what other options are advaible. Which brings up another point, what are some of the "9000" options I hear people talk about. What is even advaible for an Fanuc OM.


glovebox.

[underthetire]

Sounds like the y is over comped, I don't have 0 books here. The x may just need new thrust bearings on the screw. How's the tram and squareness. There are options available that might make your set up easier btw, have you tried the eob z and see if it puts the z offset in?

[tc429]

pretty sure 535/536/537 are x/y/z backlash- being linear, just put the indicator on it and push/pull the slide by hand to look for slop- found one today with 1/2" (!), the n-nut sheared off when a servo ran away into the hardstops...

we run most our mills at zero backlash comp, a couple thou flat at a arc quadrant is a lot less cosmetically a issue than a step...just fix it if it gets too bad.

the zero can be loaded up with options, never had one with the bigger screen, but recall theres a bit in parameter 60 for a 14" color screen on the zero-C model... 'full key' mdi keyboard is available if it dont have one, there are parameter settings as to if offsets are input as a raw value or incremental, etc... its pretty configurable for a basic control- you NEED to go thru the maintenance manual parameter section and check out whats available.

[fordav11]

As documented on many forums including this one, the 0-series has all the system configuration parameters from 900
Many of the options you will already have because its a mill.
You already have macro and drilling/boring cycles. Even the manual pulse generator and the control panel is an option, which of course you have.

If you need options that require hardware you need to see your local Fanuc service center but almost any option can be added (even a bigger screen and tool setting probe) if you want it.

Most of the software options have limited use except for specialized work.
There's no secrets here........ almost all of the options are explained in any Fanuc programming / operation / maintenance manual.

Several languages
Programmable offset input G10
Canned cycles for drilling/boring
G54-G59 work offsets
Additional work offsets G54.1
Polar coordinate conversion
Helical interpolation
Program restart
Macro A, macro B
Additional macro variables
Additional tool offsets
Scaling G50/G51
Coordinate system rotation G68
Tool life management
Additional block skip (requires more buttons/hardware)
Polar coordinate system G15/G16

There are at least triple this amount in hardware options.