Still Fighting VMC Basics

[rdoty]

Okay,
I got through some of the initial headache problems and yesterday there was a tech out who corrected a couple of problems e.g. Z-axis didn't line up with ATC. Didn't have any problem shutting down and re-starting though.

And of course when he isn't here the machine is taking it's revenge. First problem was a Y-axis error and got that resolved. New problems and questions listed below:

1. Q: Is there any way to tell which tool position the ATC is currently in?
2. Q: What is MITS?
3. Q: Is there any way to cycle the ATC and not "reload" the tool? E.g., when I do TC,1 the ATC opens, advances to the spindle which is in place, grabs the tool and the spindle releases and retracts i.e. no tool. At that point how do I command the ATC to go to another tool position? I tried entering M6 T9 (enter) but it doesn't do anything. Do I always have to manually position the tool changer if I'm not in a program? Also, when you hit MANUAL the process is just the opposite and the spindle retrieves the tool that it just unloaded.
4. Prob?: Maybe I misunderstood but I though the correct way to shut down was to just type HO then power down. When I shut down today I typed HO then I get a message Format 2, Tool X in spindle. Is that normal? I went to the manual and it says to type SETCS (enter), HO (enter) and the display should say "waiting" then hit START. There was no "waiting"...just the command line. Which is the correct way to shut down?
5. Q: What the hell is Format 2 and what does it mean?
6. Q: I intend to load tools semi-permanently i.e. probably the first 12 will seldom change. When I looked at the tool table there doesn't appear a way to identify the tool type/dia e.g. 1/2"EM, DrlChk, 8-32, etc.

I'm so used to having conversational that I'm confusing myself!!! Everybody tells me how much I'll love this Fadal when I get used to it.....I'm waiting!!!
Hope you contributors are patient with me.

[denmar]

the screen will show the current tool in the spindle
SETTO WILL RENUMBER THE TURRET (always the one facing the spindle)
TC,1, TURRET GOES IN (EMPTY), HEAD GOES UP, HIT CCW/CW TO GRAB AN
OTHER TOOL. AT THAT POINT IF YOU TYPE SETTO, THAT WOULD BE TOOL #1.
MDI, ENTER,M6T2, THAT IS THE SAME AS IN THE PROGRAM.
The purpose of TC,1, is to load the tools manualy or onload'm.
To power off: SETCS, ENTER, HO, ENTER, START..
fORMAT2, FANUC MODE,G90/G92
FORMAT 1, FADAL MODE/G91.
AT THE TOOL TABLE; YOU ENTER THE DIA OF THE TOOL,( IF USING CRC) AFTHER SETTING THE LENGHT.
The tool info goes in the program; i.e * TOOL 1 1/2 FINISH E.M.* type inside this* or (.

[SBC Cycle]

...and Format 2 is for compatibility with Fanuc style programming. I'm not sure that makes a difference if you are coming from conversational but it's the format most shops prefer.

The tool table will only show diameter offsets and tool lengths. There is no further description available. If you truly don't intend to change any of those tools, further description is probably not necassary.

[rdoty]

Thanks guys. Very slowly I'm picking it up. I frankly don't think the programming aspect will be so confusing. My next question is going to be relative to fixtures and setting origins.....

So if the correct shutdown procedure is SETCS, HO, (waiting), START why am I not getting the waiting part and it goes directly to the command line preceeded by the message Format 2, Tool X is in spindle???

[FastFieros]

you dont use SETCS to power off. Once you do a SETCS, you are setting at where it is going to go...

OK,... heres how I do it.

MACHINE ZERO is cold start ( CS ) origin. You have your X Y Z markers and you do the CS things on start up.

Now, you move your table X Y to where you want a part ZERO point and you do the SETX SETY ... NEVER do a SETZ.. use the offsets for it for sure. I am just learning the offsets for multiple fixtures, and this is really the way pros do the X and Y, but I am still not getting some of what I need for those offsets.

Now its the end of the day and you want to power off. ALWAYS go to number 4 of one of the menus ( HOME AXIS ) and then choose power off home axis. you will see 'waiting' at this point, and push the green button... This will return the X Y Z to the CS point.

What is nice is at the start of the new day, or power cycle, when you get past CS, it will ask you do you want to return to the last X Y Z zero and on SYS97 and above, it is nice enough to tell you it is going to move X?.?? Y?.?? Z?.??

So, dont use the SETCS, or at least I dont..

Also, any time it is setting there with 'waiting' it is wanting you to push the GREEN start button. Going to home the doors do not need to be closed, but in other situations, the EXT HOLD will be there indicating to close the doors.

[SBC Cycle]

I may be the only person on earth that strictly uses the command menu as opposed to the command prompt. I'm not sure exactly what the "proper" procedure is for power off. When I'm on the menu page (1 - Setup 2 - Memory, .... ) I just type a 4, then a 2 for "Send Machine Home for Power Off", I get the waiting message and flashing light, push Start and it goes back to the witness marks. E-stop, then I hit the knife switch and power down.

Type SETP in the command mode and in the parameters you should find an option to turn the menus on, off, or toggle with spacebar. Take some time to familiarize yourself with the menus. I find it much easier to remember short number/letter sequences as opposed to cryptic codes and commas.

To open ATC to load tools - 1 1 5

Fixture Offset table - 1 2 1

Tool Offset table - 1 1 3

Power off - 4 2

List Programs - P 2

Switch Programs - P 1 (then program #)

Delete Program - P 5

and so on...

Of course I've been running my Fadal's for 14 years now so I could have memorized the codes by now but when I was new the menu system was a lot more intuitive. I mean can you get any easier a menu that prompts "Send home for power off" ??

[denmar]

SOME OLD MACHINES (SOFTWEAR) DIDNT HAVE THE SPACE BAR MENUS; SO THIS ARE THE STANDARDSIN CASE IS AN OLD SOFTWEAR!!
aND IF THE MACHINE SEATS IN THE SAME AFTER SETCS, IS BECAUSE IS ALREADY AT THE COLD START POSITION!!!!!

[little bubba]

Now, you move your table X Y to where you want a part ZERO point and you do the SETX SETY ... NEVER do a SETZ.. use the offsets for it for sure..

FastFieros(rusted space frame?) I'm not being a jerk, I did what you are doing, its how I was taught, I didn't know $*!t at that point, I was green. I've since learned a lot, and now its my ass and my money on the line so... Play with your fixture offsets, it's really simple.

I've said it before, and I will say it again, NEVER EVER EVER use SETX or SETY or SETZ, or first space bar menu #7(axis zero) to set any kind of part offset. SETX and SETY set your home position(E0,G53). That is the position that ALL of your offsets are based off of, by changing your home position, you are rendering all of your fixture offsets useless.

I leave my home at my Cold Start, never have to use SetAnything. My post sends my table to E0X0Y9.5 at the end of all programs(4020) so I can get to my vises, I do adjust my X position in my program if I'm working on one end of the table.

Here is an example of what I do and why I don't want my Home position moving around. On one machine I have 3 vises, they are all lined up nicely. With no jaws in them, the bottom left corner of the fixed jaw on each vise is assigned an offset. Left is E21, middle E22, right E23. On the other machine, two vises and a 4th. E21 for left vise, E22 for right vise(in the middle of the table) and E19 for the centerline of the fourth and the face of the jaws of the 3 jaw.

So on Monday, my first job is some stupid BS thing that can be held in some simple stepped jaws that need a few reliefs. I open up the Cam program. I draw my fixed jaw, it takes a whole 3 lines, I make a few other lines keeping in mind my jaws are 1" thick and I'm going to cut them with a 1" spacer. I'm going to make a relief at the top left hand corner of my part, that is going to be E21X1.Y-.7. Draw the part right on top of my jaws I just cut, and run them with offset E21. The second op is an easy single hole, wide open as to location, I'll just not put jaws in the second vise and run E22, 1 program, 2 offsets = 1 complete part per green button push. Now for 4th axis work, already having the center of that sucker set at E19 will save tons of time, however if I use a SETX or a SETY, I move my home and I've just lost the location of all the knowns I have on my table.

Fixture offsets are your friend and the Fadal with the E#s and the utilities, 1st space bar menu #4 (set fixture) is by far the friendliest and simplest machine I've ever set a fixture offset on.

[rdoty]

Thanks for all the input. I haven't digested it all yet but tomorrow I'll be sitting at the machine with all your comments in front of me. I'm sure after going thru things 8-10 times I'll be well on my way. Don't know where I'd be without this forum.

[DareBee]

I've said it before, and I will say it again, NEVER EVER EVER use SETX or SETY or SETZ, or first space bar menu #7(axis zero) to set any kind of part offset. SETX and SETY set your home position(E0,G53). That is the position that ALL of your offsets are based off of, by changing your home position, you are rendering all of your fixture offsets useless.

.

^THIS IS THE BEST WAY^ I will continually follow Bubba around and repeat how much I strongly agree with this.

RDOTY it would be a good idea to go here http://www.compumachine.com/Support/DL-Fadal.htm and read some of these manuals

Also - I tend to keep a dozen or so "standard" tools in my ATC. What I do is zero them all to match the table (Z0 = table surface). That way I never mess around with changing the height offsets for the different fixtures (G54,G55,G56,G57,etc) I use. Some guys zero the tool on top of the part but then you need to redo the zeros every time you do a new part. For us 1-off tooling guys, we need to reduce setup time to an absolute minimum so we can almost make money.

[SBC Cycle]

FastFieros(rusted space frame?) I'm not being a jerk, I did what you are doing, its how I was taught, I didn't know $*!t at that point, I was green. I've since learned a lot, and now its my ass and my money on the line so... Play with your fixture offsets, it's really simple.

I've said it before, and I will say it again, NEVER EVER EVER use SETX or SETY or SETZ, or first space bar menu #7(axis zero) to set any kind of part offset. SETX and SETY set your home position(E0,G53). That is the position that ALL of your offsets are based off of, by changing your home position, you are rendering all of your fixture offsets useless.

I leave my home at my Cold Start, never have to use SetAnything. My post sends my table to E0X0Y9.5 at the end of all programs(4020) so I can get to my vises, I do adjust my X position in my program if I'm working on one end of the table.

Here is an example of what I do and why I don't want my Home position moving around. On one machine I have 3 vises, they are all lined up nicely. With no jaws in them, the bottom left corner of the fixed jaw on each vise is assigned an offset. Left is E21, middle E22, right E23. On the other machine, two vises and a 4th. E21 for left vise, E22 for right vise(in the middle of the table) and E19 for the centerline of the fourth and the face of the jaws of the 3 jaw.

So on Monday, my first job is some stupid BS thing that can be held in some simple stepped jaws that need a few reliefs. I open up the Cam program. I draw my fixed jaw, it takes a whole 3 lines, I make a few other lines keeping in mind my jaws are 1" thick and I'm going to cut them with a 1" spacer. I'm going to make a relief at the top left hand corner of my part, that is going to be E21X1.Y-.7. Draw the part right on top of my jaws I just cut, and run them with offset E21. The second op is an easy single hole, wide open as to location, I'll just not put jaws in the second vise and run E22, 1 program, 2 offsets = 1 complete part per green button push. Now for 4th axis work, already having the center of that sucker set at E19 will save tons of time, however if I use a SETX or a SETY, I move my home and I've just lost the location of all the knowns I have on my table.

Fixture offsets are your friend and the Fadal with the E#s and the utilities, 1st space bar menu #4 (set fixture) is by far the friendliest and simplest machine I've ever set a fixture offset on.

Excellent post. I have a very similar setup on my 3 machines. One is a 5020 with 5 Kurt vises mounted at all times, E13 - E14 is the first vise (left corner of solid jaw, right corner of solid jaw), E15 - E16 is the second vise, etc. I know where these points are at all times. E1 - E5 are my "working" offsets. If I have a stop set on vise #3, E3 X is the stop and E3 Y is the solid jaw. E25 - E36 is reserved for fixtures that I might have chucked up in a vise.

To recap:

Page 1 of the offset table - Stops and solid jaw vises 1-5
Page 2 of the offset table - Left and right corners of the solid jaw vises 1-5
Page 3 of the offset table - Fixtures
Page 4 of the offset table - Other, including E48 which is where I want the table to go at the end of the program and E47 for my tool setter, and E37 for the 4th axis

I might use my edge finder once or twice a week, never if I use a pin stop mounted in the spindle.

I also use the Z offset in the fixture offset table. All my tools are set off the table, always. Since my Kurt vises are precision machined and all the same height, I know where the bottom of the part is too! If I am using precision parallels I just add that to the Z offset as well. rdoty, if you are a fan of permanantly loaded tooling this is how you should set them up in my humble opinion.

[SBC Cycle]

^THIS IS THE BEST WAY^ I will continually follow Bubba around and repeat how much I strongly agree with this.

RDOTY it would be a good idea to go here http://www.compumachine.com/Support/DL-Fadal.htm and read some of these manuals

Also - I tend to keep a dozen or so "standard" tools in my ATC. What I do is zero them all to match the table (Z0 = table surface). That way I never mess around with changing the height offsets for the different fixtures (G54,G55,G56,G57,etc) I use. Some guys zero the tool on top of the part but then you need to redo the zeros every time you do a new part. For us 1-off tooling guys, we need to reduce setup time to an absolute minimum so we can almost make money.

And I like this guy's style too ^^^