Rate my Turcite...

[mniadna]

I got the table off my 4020. The Turcite doesn't look bad except for a lot of linear gouges in the front Turcite. The gouges in the front Turcite seem to disperse the oil before it gets to the end of the oil groove. The rear Turcite is pretty smooth. I'd like to know if I should go through the trouble of replacing it. Can someone experienced give me some input? The pictures are at: http://www.niadna.com/

Thanks,

[SORCHEROR]

the grooves dont matter,its the flatness that matters most,maybe you can have it recut slightly,just a skim off ,if it isnt flat,have you checked it?what we do here,upstate new york,we have a guy with the biggest surface grinder ive ever seen,he would grind that flat
good luck

[mniadna]

I never checked to see how flat it is. With the grooves in it the oil disperses before it get to the far side of the way. There is only around .05 of it there in the first place. If I'm going to reface it, I am definately going to replace it.

[mniadna]

Got the tabble and saddle off the machine. The saddle Turcite wasn't nearly as bad as the table. I have my turcite, and I plan on glueing it on this week. The factory Turcite looks like they used an 80 grit sanding disk to bevel the edges on it. I plan on doing the same. Did anyone in this forum ever do their own Turcite? Looking for tips...

[denmar]

THOSE DEEP LINES COMES FROM THE WAYS,HAVE TO REGRIND"EM

[rdgroup]

Where are you on this project. I rebuilt more than a dozen of these from the ground up and what your picture shows is not that bad. I recomend you replace the turcite. The ways will need to be slightly stoned in the same direction as the table slides. The new turcite will eventually work its way into some of the grooves and heal the faces for better oiling. The sine groove is very important as the oil is distributed by it. There is a trick to use to better oil this.
The early tables had a problem with the oiling config. They oiled one way from the PDI manifold and the other way with a line from the manifold to the opposite end of the table and it also oiled the x Ballscrew. This was an open system that was a stupid design.
To correct this you only need one line from the manifold to a "TEE" mounted underneath the table with a line to each Turcite (copper or urethane etc). At the other end of the table you need to put a crossover line to each turcite to close the loop for the oiling. Take an independent pdi from the manifold to the ballscrew. You will need to put the table upside down and indicate it to machine the new Turcite just as you see it. I have several geometries and toolpaths that can help you if you need them. Don't bevel the edges as this is one of the main causes of the turcite and ways getting messed up because the chips slip into the bevel and get embedded in the turcite. The edge needs to be sharp and flat. It is best to cut the edge at a slight angle to allow the chips to push off (similar to the wipers on the Y ways) The turcite is 1/16th thick and it can be machined flat from end to end. Your next issue is the Straps and Gibs. There is usually a number engraved on the sides of both. This represents the thickness at the largest end of the gib after the new turcite is put on it and machined flat. You will need to use the strap as the fixture to machine the gib so it maintains the angle or it won't work. Fadal realized recently that it wasn't necessary to put turcite on the gib anymore. Instead they used either brass or aluminun replacements without turcite and put oil grooves in them. These worked excellent.

[mniadna]

I have the table and saddle off, turcite removed. I have the new turcite and adhesive. I just need the time to glue the new turcite on. My ways really aren't that bad. The damage is a result of chips. Apparently the machin was being run for a while without the rubber wipers on the covers.
My table only has oil holes for the turcite on one side of it. The "S" path on the rear turcite terminates to lube the rear of the table. The one on the front lubes the gibs. The saddle has enter and exit holes through the turcite.
I was planning on beveling them. I assumed they did this to take care of the adhesive slop. The also cut a slight step in the turcite to lessen the bearing surface. I assume they did this to make the turcite smaller, than the way, so it wouldn't wear a step in the turcite. I wasn't planning on putting the step in.
I am going to glue the turcite on the saddle first, since I believe that will be easier. I was planning on leaving the turcite long, then trimming it once the adhesive sets. It looks like that is what they did.
The table has me a little worried... It looks like it will be a pain because there isn't a channel to hold it there. I wish the ledge where the turcite sits was wider. Is it best to cut the turcite to the exact width befor gluing, or can you trim along the whole length after the glue sets?
I bought new table gibs the turcite delaminated. Mine are 9" long Fadal only makes these in turcite. No brass. I bought new turcite to do the straps.

Thanks,

[rdgroup]

Did you buy the turcite kit with the epoxy (grey when mixed from a 2 tube combo with gun)? What year is the machine? Is there 2 oil lines to the table one at each end? does the x screw have its own oil line?

The table has a cross cut surface where the turcite is glued to it and it must be cleaned by sand blasting or very coarse wire wheel. You will need lots of Acetone to clean the surfaces. The wire wheel cuts the old glue residue quickly then the blasting to clean and prep the metal. There is also a recessed flat at each end of the crosscut for the glue and excess turcite. It is the edge on the ends of the crosscut where you will mill off the glue and excess turcite. Do not bevel any edges at all. The strip will be 2in wide. The glue needs to be applied to the crosscut evenly with a bondo squegee or the one supplied in the kit. You only need apply enough epoxy to smoothly skim to the top of the crosscut without any buildup. You also need to apply the epoxy to the turcite the same way (thin skim coat). This method makes the bond without air bubbles. Lay the turcite strip along the entire crosscut equally flat and don't worry about which way it lays down. You will need a heavey piece of steel bar 2x4 if possible that is straight. Lay the bar on the turcite and don't worry if any epoxy gets on the turcite surface as it will come off once it sets. You will need to move the bar back and forth gently to squeeze the excess epoxy from under the turcite. You will be moving the turcite with the bar. You will need 2 bars, one for each side. I also tape the metal face of the table where you will see an angular oil groove along it to keep any epoxy from getting in the groove (if you get sloppy) There is a slight undercut recess along the length of this you will need to mill away down to the metal (this is the oil runoff). Using as little epoxy as possible helps to eliminate the excess epoxy and excess work too.
The saddle works the same way only the strip is wider. Pck the existing oil holes with paper before you apply any epoxy as it will keep the epoxy from filling them. You will drill through the turcite when setup and clean the oil holes out. I don't knowhow your are going to flycut the turcite once your finished gluing but I always had a 6030 to do the saddles and tables. Thr turcite needs to be machine parallel to the table and the same for the saddle. If you don't keep all this square you will have problems. The oil groove patterns need only be .030 to .040 max in depth. If you take a pic of the bottom side of the table, I will mark it up for detail. I have done this so many times it takes me one day to clean and glue and the next day to machine and glue the oil line crossover and the 3rd day mount it all. I typically only have to flycut the turcite .003 to .01max to get it flat. This actually comes out better then Fadal does it snd they actually sub that to another company to do it for them.

[mniadna]

I got the Turcite and adhesivefrom Machine Tool Specialty. It is "Waylock adhesive" It is a 1994 4020HT. It has one oil line that feeds a manifold on the table, 3 lines come from the table manifold. 1 to the x ball nut. 1 to each of the table turcite.
I did exactly that... I wire wheeled the old glue, then sand blasted it. What type of rag do you use to wipe the acetone off the cross cut surface. It is really rough and destroys practly anything. The instructions with the epoxy say not to use air.
I measured the oil grooves at .020 deep. I was going to put them at the same depth. I am going to use a 60 degree cutter with a .125 flat. This is what the factory groove was.
I am going to take them to another shop that has a 6535 and a 2 large bridge mills to machine them. I was going to take 2 passes on the saddle turcite with a 2.5" face mill.
PM me your email address and I will send you a picture to mark up.

Thanks,

[rdgroup]

You got the right kit! You need to mop acetone on the crosscut with a white cloth so nothing bleeds onto the metal surface. You can absolutely use air and you will not need to use there "cleaner" as the acetone does the trick. The best way to cut the groove is using a 3/16 ball mill at .035 to .040 depth. The reason is to improve the slip and stick response. I spent a lot of time testing with a BallBar to find this trick. The oil film moves from the groove to the way much more freely when the table or saddle moves especially at rapids, accel/decel. When I adjust the amps after I run the amp pgm (5811 with a mod for more travel) for several hours I adjust gibs etc during the process. It would be best if you could find someone with a BallBar at some point. Remeber to lay a flat heavy bar on the turcite to press the excess glue from under the turcite so you don't develope a stackup problem on tolerances. Don't worry about too much epoxy as it will squeeze out and produce a perfect bond. You will know how well this works when you finally flycut only a few thousandths from the turcite. I don't even use a program to flycut I just use the jog button to move it over both the table and saddle. Don't lift the flycutter ever, just cut until you get a skim that cleans the turcite evenly. If by chance you have to remove 10-20 Thou then subtract tha amount from the ballmill depth. On to the oil lines. The major change here is to connect the X ballnut directly to a PDI on the main manifold. If you don't do this then the ballscrew is being starved of oil. From the small block on the table where it mounts you need to run the copper (or plastic) lines to each of the turcites. On the other end of the turcites you need to add a crossover to both. You will probably have to drill another hole just like the others and use the same epoxy to glue them in. You must glue/seal the oil lines into the casting so the oil doesn't leak back around the tubing. Before you put the saddle and table in place you will connect an oil line that you will make to pre-test the oiling functions. I will explain how to cycle the pump and or use an air hose to pressurize an oil filled oil line to force oil everywhere. Remember the devil is in the details. Take what I have written you and put together the chronological order of tasks.

[Dyad1]

Hi Guys,
So far in this discussion nothing has been mentioned about keeping the height relationship between the finished turcite and the ball nut correct. This is especially important at the ends of travel so as not cause binding. If at all possible it is best to know what the height from the original turcite (preferably before it has been worn down too much) up to the bottom of the table is and try to match this when finish cutting the turcite. I do not know if Fadal has a set dimension they always work to. It would be nice to know. At the very least it would be best to run the table all the way to the end before tightening the 4 bolts holding the ball nut in its housing. Any thoughts?
Another thought also. Why doesn't this reply screen have a spell checker?
Gary

[mniadna]

Gary,
I didn't forger about the height relationship. I depth miced both saddle and table from where the straps bolt on. I was able to find areas on the turcite with little, or no wear. I got 1.5" on the saddle and 1.25" on the table. This is what I am going to mill the turcite to...