New guy needing advice!

[ThatguyDave]

Just wanted to introduce myself to everyone here. A couple months back a purchased a 96 Fadal 4020 and it looks like I'm going to finally have it under power here in Philly sometime in the next month. Along with a Daewoo 8S lathe its my first CNC so I guess I'm pretty much jumping into this whole machining business with two feet.

Searches of this forum have been very informative but I still have a few questions:

On the Fadal base casting, 4 of the 8 holes are there to hold the machine off the floor, and the other 4 holes are there to facilitate holding the machine down to the floor. The manual doesn't do a good job of depicting which holes hold up the machine and my machine is at the riggers so I can't figure what holes the machine will rest on. I'm planning on bonding 6in*6in steel plates to the concrete floor with potted epoxy prior to installing the machine. Good idea? The floors I'm installing the machines on unfortunately aren't in the greatest condition so clamping it to the floor seems like a bad idea.

Has anyone used one of the advertised add on memory stick readers to augment their machines memory?

The shop I'm moving into only has 200amp 240V delta three phase service. I'm worried that since my 10hp air compressor technically pulls upwards of 170amps the moment it is started with its rotor in a locked condition, the instantaneous voltage drain could adversely affect one of my CNCs or my computer. My electrician assures me not to worry about this but it seems like just the thing to interphere with a serial port data transfer.

Coolant. Soooo many choices and opinions. Its kind of overwelming. Right now I'm thinking Hangsterfers only because its mfged near by and I have no genuine criteria to go by.

Thanks in advance for the advice. Dave Munz Munz Machine LLC

[HuFlungDung]

I believe most compressors, if working properly, have an unloading valve which drains the pressure off the cylinders after the compressor stops. So if this is present and working correctly, you can hear it piss off a bit of pressure for a few seconds after stopping. Thus, I think the motor has a chance to start the compressor turning without drawing locked rotor current.

As for anchoring the machine, I have an equivalent size Haas (a VF3) just sitting on its pads on top of fir 2x6's on the floor. I placed the wood parallel with the Y axis. This gets the machine up high enough that I can get my stacker forklift under the front of the machine, to load heavy parts and heavy indexers into the machine. I suspected I did not have a massively thick floor, so I wanted to spread the weight quite wide. Yes, the machine is heavy enough to sink into the wood a little bit. In the dry climate here, I think I can get away with this. I've not had to relevel the machine in 3 years.

[sti2011]

I would agree that the machine need not be bolted down. We have two 4020 Fadals currently and have had two others before them. None were bolted down. Our new 4020FX ballbars out really impressively as it sits. Also I believe that "Leveling" also includeds in part the "tram" of the machine. Our machines sit on six points, I believe as installed by Fadal techs. It seems more for important to be straight then level...otherwise they would only use 3 points and make leveling easy. They will tweak the base in places as needed to bring the machine into square.

[DareBee]

I agree, I wouldn't anchor it.
As for which holes are which? There should be jack bolts in the leveling holes, if not - they are the threaded ones.

Your electrical service will be fine.
I assume you will just use a step-up transformer for the machine?

[ThatguyDave]

Thanks for the heads up. HuFlungDung, good idea on getting the machine elevated high enough to permit lifting device legs to get underneath. Will do. A concrete filled 3*3 sounds very ideal.

I understood that leveling really refers to flexing the casting for optium machining tolerances and not merely making things flat but thanks for clarifying it anyway. Anybody know first hand of a machine actually being damaged by an extremely poor leveling job? I'm actually siked to set this one up because for some odd reason I found it necessary to get a machinists level like 6 years ago and I'll finally get to use it. I remember reading about at least one cnc that did come from the factory resting on only three points. Might have been a Hardridge lathe with a composite base. Can't remember.

My compressor does have the presssure release you're describing but regardless of motor load, every 3phase motor theoretically can pull a stagering ammount of voltage at startup depending on the position of the armature. Its kind of analagous to how a hydrolocked engine can bend rods with only modest torque on the crankshaft. The condition is very momentary though.

I don't think I'll need a step up transformer. It seems from the manual that the Fadal will accomodate pretty much any std 3ph domestic voltage. I'm still trying to figure out if my Daewoo 8S will run on the 240V three phase or not. The manual specifies 220V but other mfgs allow you to drive 220V machines with anything from 208 to 240V sources.

Oh, and Hu, my sympathies to you on having a Haas. I'd rather carve out parts by hand with a butter knife than on a Haas. I'm positive I'd be faster. Haas's are disposable machines thats why they have to keep producing them year after year. Fadals are so superior and durable that they just shut down the factory.

[scadvice]

Ouch Hu... We will stay away from that argument here i.e. Fadal vs Haas. There are enough post on that subject.
I'm not sure I would use concrete blocks, they may crack over time. If you want to raise the machine up 3 or so inches, I would use 3 or 4 inch diameter rounds or flat squares turned or faced off to the height you want and put a big spot face on them. Yes, it cost some if you don't have the scrap.
You can damage the machine if it’s really off level.
No transformer needed just adjust the step transformer as it tells you in the manual. Follow it to the letter and check the output voltages on the machine side before powering up (just like the setup manual says).
Things to check before you throw the breaker:
That you have removed the counterweight bars in the z axis.
That none of the axis are full over to one end of the travel.
All the cabinets and electrics are free of chips or other junk. Check careful like, as stuff can get in them during transport. I found a long stringy one in between my axis boards. Just dumb luck I saw it.
Things to check after you throw the main breaker on are:
Fans, in the elect. cab. and for sure the one top of the spindle motor working.
No burning smells.
Then press the green button firmly once. More things will come on and you will hear a relay or two cycle and may see the tool carousel move a little also. Pull the side chip panels off so you can see inside from the back.
No burning smells.
On the front at the control panel DO NOT type in CS yet, if you’re so inclined to do so.
((If after removing the screws that hold the counterweight bars in the bars are not coming out, carefully jog the Z axis in the plus direction (set the dial for .01 or .001 NOT .100). If you see the chains loosen your too far or it’s the wrong direction go the other way but go slow and check the bars for looseness. A .100 in either direction is the max. you will need to go… to get them out. Make sure to remove the block of wood or steel brace on the z axis used for shipping (see the manual). Used machines mostly have a block of wood.))
Now... how do you jog?? Easy, just press the white jog button on the keyboard and now the machine is in the jog mode. To the left of the Keyboard are the other controls for jogging.
OK... If everything is clear ( like the CW bars, ect) jog the z up (plus) from the wooden block they locked that axis down on (or remove the screws holding the steel shipping brace first then jog) remove them and continue to jog to the CS reference marks(again shown in the manual). Do x and y the same way.
NOW you can go back and CS (Cold Start).
Compressors no problem, just be sure all are on their own breaker from the panel. Coolant your choice...Hangsterfers.. is a good one, just keep it airated and clean.
Need more info??
Steve

[little bubba]

Dave, I won't get into the Haas vs Fadal thing. They really are about the same class of machine, though I do think the Fadal was made to be fixed and easy to work on. I'm a huge Fadal fan, and if people want to go buy a Haas, great, keeps the prices on the old Fadal's down.

As has been said, bolting it down isn't necessary, its a slow machine and its not going to walk. A shop I used to run had a screaming fast Mazak FJV and a 4020. If you left the vise handles on the FJV, when the machine took off the vise handles stayed put and fell in the chip pan. Running high feed short tool path parts, the machine at 8600lbs would walk a foot a day. That got bolted into the floor real quick.

The Fadal's and I have two 4020's of my own now, they won't move. Some steel pads with a shallow counterbore in them and your done.

Get her fired up, get her flat, check your backlash (thrust bearings, motor couplings), make sure all that is good. (don't forget the Bellevilles). The way I tweaked in the leveling was to take a big chunk of stock and take light facing passes in X and then Y. You could feel tiny little steps between passes. Use your brain power to figure out which way it needs to tweak (usually the foot that was the easiest to turn), small tweak on the screw, offset down .005" rerun. Rinse, lather, repeat.

As for setting it up on something so you can get under it, you really don't need to, the way the machine is built, plenty of clearance for a forklift, 6" at least. As for sitting it on wood, for a smaller lighter machine, OK(bridgeport), for a machine that can actually twist under its own weight, I wouldn't recommend it.

[ThatguyDave]

Thanks again for the advice. I was planning on placing the machine on 3in by 3in steel box tubing full of concrete, half to raise the machine for additional clearance and half to distribute some of the load on the floor. Even if I don't actually need the clearance on the fadal, I might do it anyway for the sake of the floor.

In all seriousness, I have absolutely nothing against Haas or any other machine mfg for the matter. I get that my Fadal is pretty basic all around machine, abet not the fastest, the fanciest, or arguably the most reliable. That said, its worlds more capable than any manual machine I've run, and more than sufficient for anything I'll throw at it. I do get somewhat annoyed with the attitudes I get from these elitists types who think everything needs to be made to 2 tenths on a 200K mori. Sounds like poor product design to me. Reminds me of when I was getting my engineering degree and everyone insisted on tig welding everything, abet with contaminated electrodes and blow holes everywhere.

No worries about missing that errant chip hanging out somewhere in the machine. There are too many chips in this machine to miss.

Thanks again for the heads up. Anyone know anything about old Monarchs? Specifically a 1985 VMC-75 with a GE Mark Centrey? 2000 control.