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Thread: MAG - Fadal Closing?????

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by iess525 View Post
    Brian,

    The post you replied to is almost 2 years old.

    -Shelvin
    TheFadalParts.com
    (818) 678-9456
    Understood. Its a valid discussion that we deal with on a daily basis and the fresh discussion is needed to rekindle confidence in the purchases of used Fadal machines. New posts to old threads continue to be viewed and present and future customers need to know we have for years and will continue to support these machines for years and years to come, to spite the efforts of Mag or others.

    Just information.

    Thanks and have a good week.

    Brian D.
    FadalCNC



  2. #42
    No posers SBC Cycle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevEdo View Post
    Tell that to Gene Haas (China is his biggest market), or GM, Ford Chrysler and on and on. The Japs and Koreans are way lower on the list of fair trade practitioner than ROC. Practically everything you consume and buy is predominantly made in ROC or Mainland. be prepared to spend about a grand a month per Haas on repairs.

    Lets use your VF3 as an example.For 69,9 you get a side mount tool changer, pcool, remote jog wheel, coolant spray gun, macros and a host of other goodies. Their Package A and Package B are standard build items. Try to buy a machine without those packages on them and watch the salesman hem and haw. And at 69.9 the dealer is making 15%. I've done several Haas machines at only a 6% margine. Gotta bargain. Tell me, how Haas can make machines like that?? I already have. They cut corners and will get you on the back end with parts and service.

    I'll tell you this straight up, I put on a Haas competitor hat and walk into a guys shop and he is gonna tell me how much he loves his Haas and how great their service is. I go out to my car and put my Haas hat on and walk right back into to that same effing shop and that same guy is gonna bmw about what piles of crap they are and how we just killing him on parts and service. I've witnessed this, not on the same day of course.

    Bottom line is, you get what you pay for. It is really as simple as that.
    LOL, I don't doubt that last part a bit. I curse the Fadal every time the damn thing cold starts off the witness marks but at the same time if someone asks I'd say they are a great machine

    All I can say is, I paid a LOT less than 69,9 and although I certainly hope my repairs are a good bit less than 1000 a month, I've got some wiggle room. What I won't be able to stand is downtime...

    FWIW, I have a 2007 Haas SL-20 that has had 1 service call (under warranty). It was a home position sensor that would have cost about 15 bucks to replace. Maybe I'm lucky, I do know how that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevEdo View Post
    Just to re-iterate, SBC.
    Gene Haas won't even use his machines to make his machines. Their factory is loaded with almost 100% high end Jap machines.
    I heard the same about Fadal from the Mazak guy. He will swear to his grave that Fadal was hiding Mazaks in a windowless room somewhere in Chatsworth, LOL. He could have been right, I have no idea, but honestly it didn't really matter much to me. Maybe if I was making precision machining centers but I'll be honest, the stuff I do isn't aerospace. I can hold 0.0005" without breaking too much of a sweat but I usually don't have to be any better than +-0.001".

    I do believe your experiences are true Rev. and I share the opinion of "you get what you pay for". I need machines that will give me a good 16 hours a day without a lot of fuss. I hope these will do the job. If they don't, I will surely report back.



  3. #43
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    Gentlemen,

    Here's the litmus test when buying a used anything. Will they warranty parts and service for a year? If not, beware. If they don't trust their own work past 90 days, neither should you! We too reman machines from time to time, but we do not advertise it and every machine is fully laser calibrated and the ballbar results are put in the rear cabinet with the survey from the calibration. We don't do many per year, but the ones we do are wonderful when complete.

    I don't know about you guys, but I have been fed up to the top of my ears with people who just spout off about their quality but don't back it up with warranty. When you buy from us, we put up. If you need something under warranty, we shut up and just ship out red at our expense and thank you for your business. I wish more Americans started believing in themselves, quit trying to put something over someone else for the quick sale, and have pride in what you sell to others and keep your margins thin and work on volume so you don't have to sacrifice quality for margin at the expense of the end user. It happens all the time and its a constant battle.

    The last year or so Fadal was selling remans was a complete disaster. There was a person in charge who cared less about much other than quitting at 5pm and making quota for the month. Fadal took it in the shorts big, and in fact, we discussed with Jerry McCarty taking on the reman program after they shut it down, and his words to me were something like, wait until the dust settles and the black eye heals before we look again at the reman program. That said it all to me, not to mention the parts we sold to end users for months after they bought their "reman" machine.

    If you truely want a reman and want to be sure of the quality, fly someone in and have it done on site or buy from someone you REALLY trust. Other than the paint, the rest is fairly easy to do right on your floor and we have done several like that. This way you can see what they are doing, make sure it is done to your satisfaction and you know what you are getting. Be smart and don't let someone sing you a song about their work, make them prove it.

    Happy shopping!

    Brian D.
    FadalCNC



  4. #44
    No posers SBC Cycle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iess525 View Post
    Sorry to hear that the remanufactured Fadals you got didn't work out. If I recall correctly, we did talk to you about a few rebuilt Fadals we had but I think the timing wasn't right or something.

    I hope that your bad experience with the rebuilds that you received won't turn you off from companies out there who are legitimately rebuilding Fadals (like us). Next time you're looking for a Fadal rebuilder, feel free to give us a call to see what we can do for you.

    -Shelvin
    TheFadalParts.com
    (818) 678-9456
    Shelvin, you're right it was just a time thing. Here I am now almost at the end of January and we just powered up today for the first time. It was a frustrating experience. We were forced to sub-contract out a lot of parts, lost money on them, and we're still behind schedule.

    Believe me, we are keeping our Fadals as long as possible and will need parts for them. You guys that put in your time here to help the end user - it doesn't go unnoticed. That's why your name was the first to come to mind when we decided we had to have 2 more machines. If you asked me if there will be a next time, the answer will be YES. I can only hope I don't need 2 machines in 5 days next time, LOL. You did your best, I know that.



  5. #45
    No posers SBC Cycle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASIGuy View Post
    Gentlemen,

    Here's the litmus test when buying a used anything. Will they warranty parts and service for a year? If not, beware. If they don't trust their own work past 90 days, neither should you! We too reman machines from time to time, but we do not advertise it and every machine is fully laser calibrated and the ballbar results are put in the rear cabinet with the survey from the calibration. We don't do many per year, but the ones we do are wonderful when complete.

    I don't know about you guys, but I have been fed up to the top of my ears with people who just spout off about their quality but don't back it up with warranty. When you buy from us, we put up. If you need something under warranty, we shut up and just ship out red at our expense and thank you for your business. I wish more Americans started believing in themselves, quit trying to put something over someone else for the quick sale, and have pride in what you sell to others and keep your margins thin and work on volume so you don't have to sacrifice quality for margin at the expense of the end user. It happens all the time and its a constant battle.

    The last year or so Fadal was selling remans was a complete disaster. There was a person in charge who cared less about much other than quitting at 5pm and making quota for the month. Fadal took it in the shorts big, and in fact, we discussed with Jerry McCarty taking on the reman program after they shut it down, and his words to me were something like, wait until the dust settles and the black eye heals before we look again at the reman program. That said it all to me, not to mention the parts we sold to end users for months after they bought their "reman" machine.

    If you truely want a reman and want to be sure of the quality, fly someone in and have it done on site or buy from someone you REALLY trust. Other than the paint, the rest is fairly easy to do right on your floor and we have done several like that. This way you can see what they are doing, make sure it is done to your satisfaction and you know what you are getting. Be smart and don't let someone sing you a song about their work, make them prove it.

    Happy shopping!

    Brian D.
    FadalCNC
    True dat Brian. Lesson learned, humble pie doesn't taste that bad



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    Quote Originally Posted by SBC Cycle View Post
    Shelvin, you're right it was just a time thing. Here I am now almost at the end of January and we just powered up today for the first time. It was a frustrating experience. We were forced to sub-contract out a lot of parts, lost money on them, and we're still behind schedule.

    Believe me, we are keeping our Fadals as long as possible and will need parts for them. You guys that put in your time here to help the end user - it doesn't go unnoticed. That's why your name was the first to come to mind when we decided we had to have 2 more machines. If you asked me if there will be a next time, the answer will be YES. I can only hope I don't need 2 machines in 5 days next time, LOL. You did your best, I know that.
    With this delayed delivery, we probably could have worked something out. Sorry to hear it didn't work out so well for you. The problem is most of the time the dealers selling these "reman" machines are getting a machine from a "rebuilder"...it would probably take me 2 guesses to figure out where you got those machines from.

    Feel free to let us know what we can do to help. If you do need something in the next 5 days, I happen to have a few 2006 4020's still available! Anything you need...let us know.

    -Shelvin
    TheFadalParts.com
    (818) 678-9456

    Need help with your Fadal? Send me a message or visit www.TheFadalParts.com. We have over 25 years of experience at Fadal and offer FREE TECHNICAL SUPPORT OVER THE PHONE!


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    I just stumbled on this page and it brought up great memorys. Many years ago I was a salesman for Given Machinery we were a used Machinery dealer and an importer of machines from many parts of the world. One morning a gentelman visited our company looking for a used small bench lathe. He had $300.00 cash after visiting for a few minutes I showed this man a new SAIMP lathe that sold for $3,400.00 and told him I coud finance it for him he bought it and this began a long relationship and also the start of a small business that eventually became FADAL maching centers. This man was the F in fadal Frances DeCausin. His sons eventually joined him and the Fadal name came from Fran the father,Adrian the oldest son who was responsible for the eventual design of the Fadal control David a smart young man who was a driving force in the company desiging and building the first automatic tool changer for use on Bridgeport conversions and Larry a first class Machinist. Fran, Adrian,Dave and Larry. Keep in mind that this was back in the early "60's" As Fran prospered he purchased a Ford CROSBY a great car later Dave bought a MINI S COOPER and he changed my 16 year old son forever by letting him drive that car. He has been a CAR nut eversince.

    The Fadal company is an AMERICAN success story that has pretty much disappeared from the business as we see it today and it is very sad to hear that they are about to go away. I am very concerned that our Federal government is responsible for the loss of this and many other Machine Tool Builders. Fran is gone Adrian is gone but I believe that some of the family is still around and I would bet that Dave is still active doing something with machines.

    Mel White



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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel White View Post
    I just stumbled on this page and it brought up great memorys. Many years ago I was a salesman for Given Machinery we were a used Machinery dealer and an importer of machines from many parts of the world. One morning a gentelman visited our company looking for a used small bench lathe. He had $300.00 cash after visiting for a few minutes I showed this man a new SAIMP lathe that sold for $3,400.00 and told him I coud finance it for him he bought it and this began a long relationship and also the start of a small business that eventually became FADAL maching centers. This man was the F in fadal Frances DeCausin. His sons eventually joined him and the Fadal name came from Fran the father,Adrian the oldest son who was responsible for the eventual design of the Fadal control David a smart young man who was a driving force in the company desiging and building the first automatic tool changer for use on Bridgeport conversions and Larry a first class Machinist. Fran, Adrian,Dave and Larry. Keep in mind that this was back in the early "60's" As Fran prospered he purchased a Ford CROSBY a great car later Dave bought a MINI S COOPER and he changed my 16 year old son forever by letting him drive that car. He has been a CAR nut eversince.

    The Fadal company is an AMERICAN success story that has pretty much disappeared from the business as we see it today and it is very sad to hear that they are about to go away. I am very concerned that our Federal government is responsible for the loss of this and many other Machine Tool Builders. Fran is gone Adrian is gone but I believe that some of the family is still around and I would bet that Dave is still active doing something with machines.

    Mel White
    How honored you must be to have known the Decaussins personally. I have a high regard for the accomplishments of our fellow Americans and just sorry to see big business ruin what was an icon of United States manufacturing. Certanly our government has to do with the dimise of our machine tool builders with the ongoing trade deficit with Asia and others, but ignorance to the needs of the end user in my mind directly destroyed Fadal Engineering starting with Giddings in the '90's and Mag is following suit in a bigger way.

    I have met and spoken with Glen Decaussin who is closely related to the original 4, and what a fine person he is. Now partnered with Walter in their new business venture, Calmotion, I wish them great success and we personally sell the hell out of their products.

    Thanks for reminising a little. I enjoyed the read Mel.

    Cheers!

    Brian D.
    FadalCNC



  9. #49
    Registered Bwana Don's Avatar
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    Good to know I have a couple of different sources for parts. I love our Fadal, it's easy to use and has made many parts for us $$$$$$$$$.

    It's not as fast as our Kitamura Mycenter 3XI, but that's a pallet changing production monster that cost 3x as much. When it goes down it breaks the bank, Fanuc boards are an arm, a leg, and a tes.......... some parts ship from Japan.

    Coolant through the tool pump, $3000. 4 weeks shipping, from Japan. Spindle rebuild, $15k, 4 weeks time. Fadal spindle $4495, probably a day to install.

    Both machines have their place.

    Still working in the "D".


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwana Don View Post
    Good to know I have a couple of different sources for parts. I love our Fadal, it's easy to use and has made many parts for us $$$$$$$$$.

    It's not as fast as our Kitamura Mycenter 3XI, but that's a pallet changing production monster that cost 3x as much. When it goes down it breaks the bank, Fanuc boards are an arm, a leg, and a tes.......... some parts ship from Japan.

    Coolant through the tool pump, $3000. 4 weeks shipping, from Japan. Spindle rebuild, $15k, 4 weeks time. Fadal spindle $4495, probably a day to install.

    Both machines have their place.
    True that! Like buying anything to make a living with. Determine what you plan to do, what you do best and ENJOY (yes, we all tend to forget about this part) and buy equipment that accents your skills and business plan. Fadal machines are easy to troubleshoot, easy to fix, easy to get parts for, parts are reasonably priced and good quality, and its just a work horse. The really cool thing going on right now is this crazy, "Oh ****, Mag Fadal is going out of business....hurry, sell off your Fadal before you can't support it anymore!" So used prices for these machines are crazy good right now and if you consider the cost of spindle time to make parts, so long as you don't have to hold small tenths tollerence, or 5 zillion parts in the bucket each day, it's a hell of a bargin and easy to make money with. Support is everywhere, and will be for years and years, so take advantage of the hyesteria and make some money.

    Cheers!

    Brian D.
    FadalCNC



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    Quote Originally Posted by ASIGuy View Post
    Support is everywhere, and will be for years and years, so take advantage of the hyesteria and make some money.
    Cheers!

    Brian D.
    FadalCNC
    Zaxatootly. There will be plenty of support for at least the next decade.
    Hell, I visited a shop in Los Al last week that was still running the crap out of their Acroloc, ffs.
    Which, by the way, sitting idle next to it, for a long time was a Traub TNM42. A VERY PRICEY machine.
    Go figure, eh?



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevEdo View Post
    Zaxatootly. There will be plenty of support for at least the next decade.
    Hell, I visited a shop in Los Al last week that was still running the crap out of their Acroloc, ffs.
    Which, by the way, sitting idle next to it, for a long time was a Traub TNM42. A VERY PRICEY machine.
    Go figure, eh?
    Funny deal. We sell consumable products like end mills, taps, coolant, tool holders, vises and about anything you can imagine for machine shops in our local market. Customers continue to beat up our salesmen over pennies on the dollar to get the "best deal" when the consumable products used in the machining process amounts to about 5% of the cost of the end product(according to Sandvik market research from 2008).

    Have any idea what the biggest cost to a machine shop is? Non-moving spindles. Yip. What next? Building and employee expenses, then utilities. Consumables are about the last on the list, but where people seem to spend the most time squeezing the last breath of air out of their tool salesman rather than looking at this salesman as a partner. Partner? Yeah, Partner! How so? Easy.

    You and your company are not on an island, isolated from the rest of the planet, so why do machine shop owners and managers act like salesmen are expendible pieces of crap? Not everyone does, but its been my personal experience that most do. So here's a concept: Find a good tool salesman who is personable, you like, they are intelligent, well versed in the machining process, provide feedback on your requests in a timely manor, fill your orders as per your instructions and keep him close to your side.

    Forgo the discussion about, "What's the best deal you can get me on those Lyndex tool holders," but rather allow him to make his 30 points, feed his family, support the company who employs him so they are there when you REALLY need his help. Sometimes we need tools in an emergancy, right? Sometimes you don't plan, drop the ball and forget to order the supplies you needed to make a part you quoted. It happens to all of us. The key here is the partnership. This same saleman will jump through hoops, you will be his favorite client and would walk through fire to help you....and will put others who constantly badger him over 5% off until a more convenient time. This is just human nature.

    Now, let's move on to the non-moving spindle discussion. Now that you have stopped crying over pennies, or even $100 on a $1000 order, you have a real asset on your side. Use him. You make parts, right? He is in all the machines shops in a local area, right? Ask him to see if anyone needs some parts subbed out and have him recommend you. He would gladly do this for anyone who allows him to make a living. Wouldn't you?

    We partner ONLY with companies who share our philosophy about taking care of customers, jumping through hoops, understanding rules are broken sometimes, and each decision is made based on individual circumstances, not based on hard set rules where situations are thrown into the "Rule box" and the answer is spat out the other side. This is the pitfall of big business in not empowering and trusting the people they hire to make the right decision to retain the customer (#1) and company profitability (#2).

    Remember this always: If you piss off your server before your food is delivered, beware of what you are about to eat. If you piss them off by sending food back, beware again.

    If you treat your service guy or tool salesman with respect and allow them to dispense justice as they see it and trust them to be fair(meaning, charge a fair price for tooling, parts or service labor), you will have a professional at your side always. It may cost you a little more money, but when you need a favor called in to save one of your customers(machine down, need tooling, etc), they will take care of you. If you piss and moan about the labor rate, how many hours it took to fix the machine, or tooling prices 10% more than you find on the internet or catelog you can plan that your needs are further down their totum pole and they'll get to you when they can. If you don't trust them, why are you buying from them or allowing them to touch your machines? I mean really, think about it.

    We in America need to get off the what-can-you-do-for-me-now trip and begin thinking about taking care of others, partnering with professionals in your area, and sharing resources, then the money will come, and come with less risk and more consistancy.

    It takes people to help us succeed, and the same people can also help you fail. Take your choice.

    Cheers!

    Brian D.
    FadalCNC



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    Brian D (Fadal CNC)
    I appreciated your remarks regarding Salesmen right on. With that attitude I was a highly paid succesful salesman for many years. The more I helped my customers the better I felt and even today I consider many of these people as my friends and this started more than 40 years ago.

    Mel White



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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel White View Post
    Brian D (Fadal CNC)
    I appreciated your remarks regarding Salesmen right on. With that attitude I was a highly paid succesful salesman for many years. The more I helped my customers the better I felt and even today I consider many of these people as my friends and this started more than 40 years ago.

    Mel White
    I wish the climate in America was more about friendships, loyalties, honesty and integrity but it seems these values have become diluted since I was growing up. I'm glad there are still a few of them out there Mel.

    Cheers!

    Brian D.
    FadalCNC



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    Quote Originally Posted by ASIGuy View Post
    I wish the climate in America was more about friendships, loyalties, honesty and integrity but it seems these values have become diluted since I was growing up. I'm glad there are still a few of them out there Mel.

    Cheers!

    Brian D.
    FadalCNC
    I was at a shop today where the customer bought ME lunch!! That's right, the salesman didn't by the customer lunch,lol. We chatted for hour and a 1/22 and he said "I only buy machines from people I truly like". He must have liked me when he bought 120FEET of Cincy rail with 2 gantries and 6 "5 axis" spindles at 2.34 mil???

    Thanx for lunch Mo,lol.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ASIGuy View Post
    It takes people to help us succeed, and the same people can also help you fail. Take your choice.

    Cheers!

    Brian D.
    FadalCNC
    All of us old guys/vets should be promoting the NTMA Training Centers.
    High schools should be promoting machine shop for at risk youth.
    A lot of these "at risk" kids have no self esteem. The one thing I always took from being a machinist was actually making something. Taking raw stock from print to part.
    The Obongo gave a speech at GE- Schnectady a few weeks ago urging us to be "makers of things" again. we are nothing unless we can produce.



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