Fadal 2216FX + Fanuc oi + Renishaw... HELP!!!

[ghyman]

We just purchased a Fadal, and are having a total nightmare with probing...
The machine arrived 2-1/2 weeks ago, with the probe (OMP-40) in a sad state... It would run through the probe-calibration screen from the GUI, but wouldn't shut off. The rep from the distributer had to change DIP switches in the receiver, and the unit was wired into the control wrong.
After fixing it (ie - it would shut off), he moved on to other stuff.
The following day, we found out that the 'fixed' probe would now do a Z minus move in rapid travel, destroying the probe tip, no matter what we tried to do with it. (And it doesn't stop when it smashes into the table; shouldn't it sort of stop when it touches?)
The distributer came out and watched it happen first-hand a few days later.
The rep came back out and found that the parameters had been set wrong; he corrected them, and we verified that all of the manual routines would function properly.
Today, we tried to run through some of the automated routines... Renishaw's 9xxx series 'stuff'.
Tried a simple calibration cycle... G65 P9804 D1.0
Control can't find the 9804 program.
Distributer's "guy" says that we have to use a M165, then call up the G65 Pxxx sub. (No documentation to support this, but worth a try!)
M165 G65 P9804 D1.0, cycle start... with the probe tip 8" above the standard, just for safety's sake.
Spindle rapids straight down into the standard (even with override at '0', shattering another probe and jamming the standard against the table. Couldn't hit the feed hold fast enough. (I believe this is tip #4 and standard #2)
Called Renishaw, asked them for reference manuals. Renishaw says that Fadal uses their own proprietary versions of Renishaw subs, and therefore Fadal will have to be the answer people.
Called distributer; had to leave a voice mail.
Contacted Fadal, left a message.
4 hours later, the machine is still sitting (although I'm thinking that the crushed ruby and ceramic will make a nice medium if we want to use it as a waterjet!), and I've still not heard back from anyone.

Can anyone give me some examples of how to probe with this machine?
We do it all the time on our haas machines without a bit of trouble.
The documentation we (finally) got from the distributer has exactly NO information about probing, and I'm really getting tired of feeling my way blindly through the forest.
Please oh please oh please help!

[Al_The_Man]

I don't understand that if you have the Renishaw 9000 macro's it should include a protected move routine, i.e. you should never move any axis with the probe in place without a G31 in the routine, which the protected move has.
If a rapid move to initial position is performed and a probe collision occurs, all axis will stop.
If Fadal have modified the probe routines, to my mind they should supply comprehensive documentation on usage.
Whats with the uncontrollable Rapids?
A Renishaw crash can be Very expensive.!
Al.

[ghyman]

The control has an entire library of built-in probing routines accessible from the cnc panel; they are all soft-key access with on-screen prompts... ie to calibrate the probe tip, there is a 'cal probe' key that gives you 'length' or 'radius' options... choosing the 'radius' option will bring up prompts that require the user to input the set master diameter *and the probe tip diameter*, then manually jog the probe to the center of the standard in X/Y/Z, then switch to Auto and hit Cycle Start... It beeps the standard then stops. (Haas+Renishaw does it in with "G65P9804D1.0" for a 1" standard, it calculates the tip automatically) All of the built-in probing functions are like this. ("manual") It was this function that wrecked 2 or 3 probes, it took that many to realize that the override is apparently bypassed for the duration of the cycle.
The service rep from the distributer wasn't sure about the specifics, but was 'pretty sure' it's a "M165" to use the Renishaw subs.
It took us a week and a half to get the manuals, which consists of a burned CD with all of the Fanuc manuals in PDF format, but nothing about the Fadal side... no M code list or anything about probing or the GUI.
Last week was the local tool show (mini-IMTS), so service and support locally has been hard to come by, I'm guessing they're still tearing down or re-stocking all the equipment they had on display...
That's why I'm looking for anyone who has been able to make this work, or has some sample programs, or anything else.
And yes, I agree this should be heavily documented!
My only assumption now is that the 9xxx routines are there (the M165G65P9804 wreck tells me *something* is there), but that they're either not the same program numbers as on the Haas+Renishaw, or that the wiring/dip switches/parameters are still wrong.
And the cost of a dead machine is more of a killer than a wrecked probe! (Dead = wrecked probes, mis-wired chip conveyor, hung tool changer, no production) It will be nice to be able to start making chips before the warranty runs out! ;-)
GAAAAHHH!!!

[Cory]

Wow... does anyone have anything good to say about the FX models?

We came within an inch of purchasing a loaded 2216FX. Ended up going for a similarly outfitted VF-1. Haven't had a single problem in 5 months. I'm pretty glad we didn't get the FX.

[ghyman]

... And now I know.
The Fadal comes with it's own library of manual probe routines, but not any of the Renishaw automatic subroutines (for probing in-cycle).
In short, every time you want to probe a part (or a feature), you have to go to the 'probe' mode, manually position the probe near the feature to be measured, select the type of measurement to be performed, fill in a bunch of text boxes to describe the feature, then hit cycle start. Then, repeat the process for every feature to be measured.
Be warned... purchasing a machine with "Renishaw OMP-40 Probe System" as an option does not mean what it sounds like... or at least it does not mean what I assumed it to mean.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by ghyman ... And now I know. The Fadal comes with it's own library of manual probe routines, but not any of the Renishaw automatic subroutines (for probing in-cycle). In short, every time you want to probe a part (or a feature), you have to go to the 'probe' mode, manually position the probe near the feature to be measured, select the type of measurement to be performed, fill in a bunch of text boxes to describe the feature, then hit cycle start. Then, repeat the process for every feature to be measured. Be warned... purchasing a machine with "Renishaw OMP-40 Probe System" as an option does not mean what it sounds like... or at least it does not mean what I assumed it to mean.

You should be able to insert the cycle into your program. If you take a quick look at the code that is generated after inputting your values, it should be easy to see what variables apply to what values. Then you can copy and paste the code into your program, change whatever values you need to change from program to program, and start it out at whatever position will satisfy the template you've chosen.

On our Haas you don't even need to copy and paste. It asks you if you'd like to insert it into your current program, new program, or MDI

[ghyman]

I'm not seeing that it actually generates any code; the control never leaves the probing screen - it simply displays the results of the measurements when it is done beeping the feature.
2 days of phone calls to the distributer and to Fadal sort of confirm that this is the only functionality available... although nobody seems to know for certain.
poop.
:-(

[Cory]

Originally Posted by ghyman I'm not seeing that it actually generates any code; the control never leaves the probing screen - it simply displays the results of the measurements when it is done beeping the feature. 2 days of phone calls to the distributer and to Fadal sort of confirm that this is the only functionality available... although nobody seems to know for certain. poop. :-(

Oh. Fadal must do it differently than Haas then. On the Haas you choose to either put it into a program or MDI. You can't run it from the screen. Once it goes into MDI you can copy it and manipulate it as you please.

I can't imagine there's no way for you to see the actual cycles so that you can put them into your code. Afterall, isn't that a selling point of the probe? In cycle measurement and compensation...

[ghyman]

Renishaw is very tight-lipped about Fadal; the application engineer I spoke with was obviously disappointed with them when he told me that they (Renishaw) can't really help me since Fadal is using their version of Renishaw's code.
The selling point, according to Fadal's salesman, is "Part measurement". And, in the strictest sense, that is exactly what it is capable of doing. Nothing more.
But, it's a moot point right now... we tried running some production parts after finding out that the probe isn't what is was assumed to be; the spindle started screaming extremely loud after about 20 minutes of running parts.
I'm losing my warm fuzzy feeling about this purchase; after nearly 3 weeks we have yet to run any kind of production... machine arrived with a non-working chip conveyor (mis-wired), non-functional probe (mis-wired, bad settings, parameters wrong), tool changer that just stops mid-cycle for no apparent reason, and now a screaming spindle.
But on the bright side, it did run 2 parts before the spindle went south! Now... if we can get about $40-50K per part, it'll be great!

[ltmquik]

Originally Posted by ghyman Renishaw is very tight-lipped about Fadal; the application engineer I spoke with was obviously disappointed with them when he told me that they (Renishaw) can't really help me since Fadal is using their version of Renishaw's code. The selling point, according to Fadal's salesman, is "Part measurement". And, in the strictest sense, that is exactly what it is capable of doing. Nothing more. But, it's a moot point right now... we tried running some production parts after finding out that the probe isn't what is was assumed to be; the spindle started screaming extremely loud after about 20 minutes of running parts. I'm losing my warm fuzzy feeling about this purchase; after nearly 3 weeks we have yet to run any kind of production... machine arrived with a non-working chip conveyor (mis-wired), non-functional probe (mis-wired, bad settings, parameters wrong), tool changer that just stops mid-cycle for no apparent reason, and now a screaming spindle. But on the bright side, it did run 2 parts before the spindle went south! Now... if we can get about $40-50K per part, it'll be great!

Make FADAL take the machine back. We went thru similar problems with a Siemens controlled machine. We hung in until after the warranty period to try and get rid of the machine thinking that FADAL could get the machine running right in a year. NO LUCK! Fadal would not even give us $45K for a two (2) year old machine that cost us $120K new. I hope you can learn from my mistake.

[rickyt]

Just tell them to take it back and get a Haas or sharp for the same money. You could also look at a Mazak 410A, for a little more money you could get a machine that will run circle's around the lower end machines.

[DRD]

I also would tell them to pick up the machine. I would never put up with new machine that had no support behind it. Go buy a Haas and be done with it.