Re-man Fadals?

[hardrocker]

I thought I seen a thread on rebuilds but can't seem to find it again. Anyway, I posted more a more specific description of the task to the general machining forum as we might be still looking at Haas too (if they had re-builds, probably would be the choice as we get great service from them on our toolroom VMC), but there looks to be a lot of value in the Fadal remanufactured machines [sorry if this is a slight cross-post].

Like new, the salesman said "current controls, motors, yada, yada, six month warrenty, yada, yada"

Anything I'm missing or being mislead?

Any chance the factory would let me do a final run off before it ships, so I can have it set up for the specific application? Better yet, will they install custom aftermarket options? Will they put in a Fanuc control [I may be wrong, but think parts would be a bit easier; programming idiosyncracies should be closer to the HAAS too, perhaps] in the rebuilds? (the salesman didn't seem to know much about the last few questions)

Thanks!

[ltmquik]

I know in the past if one ordered a reman machine from Fadal they basically get which ever machine is ready at the time. The controls may or may not be new as well with motors etc. I have been in the Fadal reman department and was impressed with the way Fadal strips the machine down to the base casting and then rebuilds the machines. I have one that was shipped with a used control (e-stop button had arrows completely worn off) and rusty door latches on all the cabinets. The z-axis ball screw went out after about a year. Since then I have not had any problems. I have seen remans with newer controls and new cabinets. Its just the luck of the draw. I am not sure how MAG is running the reman department now though. I would just get a new machine to guarantee getting what you want. I also would want the one (1) year warranty with their track record lately.

[hardrocker]

Thanks! For the "out of the box" reliability we want, maybe new is better; it seems lemons crop up everywhere though.

I think the only way I'll be somewhat confident about getting what we need on this machine is having a run-off before it ships. We're dealing fairly low forces in X&Y, not too bad in Z, nothing sub-mil on accuracy, but we want very good reliability and instanious service [thus FADAL and HAAS in our area] on a mediocre budget - which is slighty ill defined, but the powers that be aren't writing any blank checks!

It almost looks like I have a better chance with the reman than new for a pre-shipping run-off [especially if I want some oddball upgrades], but I need to talk with our dealer again. On a slight tangent, I talked with Neal at the reman center, and was quite well impressed.

Hey, where's the rest of the loyal [or dissatisfied as well] Fadal guys; maybe I should have posted in the HAAS forum!

[hardrocker]

BTW, I did a new search and found the threads I was looking for, but would still like any insight out there! Thanks!

[hardrocker]

Figured it's time to update everyone here:

We did go with the reman Fadal as the dealer had one in stock (and one on order); our budget wasn't moving and new machines in either Haas or Fadal weren't available in less than 6-8 weeks [it'd been a 30X16 at that to make budget].

Now where it get's a bit crazy:
They were going to sell us the 32MP with 30HP for no extra cost; ready for immediate delivery. They moved it to the showroom and powered it up so we could come see it; I was very impressed. Anything that would have concerned me was new - nothing showing any wear. With close scrutiny, I did find a tiny (maybe 1/8X1/8) drill mark left on the table [else looked new], and the chiller was likely used, but I walked right by the machine first thinking it was new. The screw adjustment sheet and ballbar looked great too, probably better than many new machines of most brands!

However, another customer seen it when they moved it to the showroom, so though we had first chance, we had to settle for a different machine (concurently on order) to get enough time to get the paperwork around on our end.

The extra two week leadtime wasn't optimal but workable and delivery was as quoted (though the through spindle pump shipped separate and I haven't seen it yet - tommorrow I think). This one only has the 22.5HP (true 15HP motor?), and just the MP; both downgrades were fine for the application, and we got $2K discount, 1year warranty, and intial onsite calibration followed by an 11th month recalibration to insure it's holding up [the actual options exchanged, would have still been a much better value, but we didn't need them]. On the down side, the factory calibration reports were fine but not as impressive as the other machine. Also, I never thought to insist on a floppy drive (it wasn't quoted separt from the MP32 package, [the ethernet would have been nice too], on the other one), but we'll likely make a 232 cable anyway.

This machine looks as good or better than the other one, but after we got it on the floor and started playing with it, a couple shipping issues showed up (door latch cracked as well as a screen protector smudge and small cracks on the house where the door rods cross through), the trucker noted that his trailer was hit at a truck stop, but we didn't see the damage until install - the dealer assured me these issues will be taken care of. Where I have a bit of concern: what if it had a really good jolt, bounced the table around and chipped turquite or something; but that's perhaps pretty paranoid.

The tool changes and G0s are a bit slow, but nothing unexpected. Our toolroom guys have a Haas and jest that their pushbutton (instead of on-screen) menus are nicer, but production won't use much more than "start" and occasional tool offsets.

All in all, I'm thinking it will be a good machine for the task.

[Scott_bob]

hardrocker,

Why did you not get the test cut done on your selected machine?
Why would your "powers that be" not spend a little more on a better machine, that will not break down like your old Fadal will?
Why would they feel comfortable buying a CNC product that performs well when it needs service, instead of having a machine that does not break down, but outperforms the Fadal both in accuracy and performance?
If getting quick service out weighs the benefit of accuracy and performance, what are you guys selling anyway?

Good luck,

[carbidecraters]

A bunch of questions

1. If a oring goes out on coolant thru does it cause the spindle bearings to fail (Like the Matsurra?)
2. Did they ever have a coolant thru and 15000rpm or 12000rpm?
3. What pressure is the stock Fadal coolant thru runing at?
4. In what years did they offer the 12000 or 15000rpm spindle?
5. What was the first year they offered the spindle thru coolant?

[carbidecraters]

oops

[hardrocker]

hardrocker,

Why did you not get the test cut done on your selected machine?
Why would your "powers that be" not spend a little more on a better machine, that will not break down like your old Fadal will?
Why would they feel comfortable buying a CNC product that performs well when it needs service, instead of having a machine that does not break down, but outperforms the Fadal both in accuracy and performance?
If getting quick service out weighs the benefit of accuracy and performance, what are you guys selling anyway?

Good luck,

Ahhh, great questions Scott_bob.......

Actually, the Fadal vendor was the only "local" dealer willing to run a test cut [or for that matter power up anything but brand new machines already on their showroom], so they did gain some points there. They had just installed an identical [actually 15HP] machine near us, and arranged for me to bring in a dozen parts for test cutting; when they offered the 30HP to us they had it powered up 3days after I expressed interest (I didn't do any cutting there as planned [I had a nice chuck of 4140prehard and a big insert cutter in the trunk, as well as the products driving the project]; as I realized the morning I drove out that we'd never get the signatures here with-in the 24hours I needed, so I wasn't going to dirty it for another customer). As far as the one now sitting here, it came directly from Fadal, and after viewing the previous two, I couldn't justify a trip to California

As far as a better machine? Well that's two-fold, actually three if I address the last point first. We do very little machining; pressing, forming, welding, brazing ect. comprise the products, but a new product needed a very deep hole drilled in several places [with tool changes and coolant requirements: out of the league of high-speed drilling machines, but toleranced very easy for even a cheap VMC].

Now with that in mind, our management budgeted the project thinking that Haas was the "Cadillac" of machining centers, and that we may even be able to do it with a drilling machine (first glance at the prints, I even thought the latter). Where it gets more interesting is the collective analysis paralysis around here: pick at details for weeks on end, then scramble and/or pay expediting charges to have the same thing [or lesser!] at the same time [or latter] than originally planned.

Beyond the parts we ran with the dealer, we don't even have the R&D done for this process......so just the fact I now actually have a machine sitting here, the Fadal pretty much does feel like a Cadillac!

[hardrocker]

Should answer the obvious question:

We haven't done any R&D in our toolroom's Hass because it doesn't have through spindle coolant. Then again, as of right now, neither does the Fadal!

[hardrocker]

Coolant pallet arrived! Will be installed starting Thur afternoon, maybe finishing on Friday.

Then we'll see if that 22HP has any torque! On the 15HP machine we [all machines were recently built or remanned 4020s] ran the trial, I don't recall the meter even topping 50% in the cut; should be a peice of cake with 50% more. Of course, long term we'll see how the spindle bearings and coolant union like 10Krpm hole after hole after hole........

[billystein]

if you would to see another for rebuilt fadals then call m+j 818-631-4431.
i bought a fadal last year for a decent price and even got a 1 year warranty.
miguel told me he had 17 fadals in his back yard.


just a thought