Offsets!! What is the secret?? NEED HELP

[Gade1000]

Hello Everyone,,
I've just purchased a 1997 Fadal 6030,, good machine sofar.

I am using Format 1,,

I have read everything there is to read on the net about offsets,, but I am still having a BIG problem.
Scenario: #1

Using the fadal utility,,, CS is 0"
I set tool #1 (ex:-26.0") and #2 (ex:-27.0") with 2" block on the table
my fixture plate (which I will change frequently) is about 2.8" higher
Q: What do I enter as my negative Z fixture height? What is the Z fixture height referenced to??
If I set a height ,, it is ok with only 1 of the 2 tools!!!

Scenario #2
I finish a drilling operation,, all is ok until I change drill bits (change tool length in utility), ok
Then for some reason my Z fixture height doesn't work anymore!!!!

Any operation I do,, I can only use 1 tool!!

Please help!!

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[Jberglu]

I use the top of the part blank for Z 0, Set you're 2" toolsetter on the part, set all the tool lengths on the setter.
You're z height is now 2 " above the part. Open the fixture table and set Z-2.0".If you are using more than 1 fixture offset, then do the same for all the fixtures.

[rodney247]

I Highly recommend using the "UT" command. Use it to set all your tools just answer the questions. UT then tool setting. Use the Jog. tell it starting and ending tools. the tool setter height 2 inches in your case (dont forget the decimal 2. not 2 ) it will automatically add the 2 inches to the length. So the procedure will be hit Jog and jog to your tool setter and then Manual and then start to change to next tool.

UT is great for finding center of circle for fixture offset setting. If you need me to get you thru it give me a PM and i can answer your questions.

[jbranting]

You can also use the DT command after setting tool lengths. select 3 for mass modify, enter tool range, then -2.0 for length. I always leave my Z fixture offset at 0 , so the tools are referenced off the Z0 CS line. Definitely many ways to do it.

[Welder2022]

Hello Everyone,,
I've just purchased a 1997 Fadal 6030,, good machine sofar.

I am using Format 1,,

I have read everything there is to read on the net about offsets,, but I am still having a BIG problem.
Scenario: #1

Using the fadal utility,,, CS is 0"
I set tool #1 (ex:-26.0") and #2 (ex:-27.0") with 2" block on the table
my fixture plate (which I will change frequently) is about 2.8" higher
Q: What do I enter as my negative Z fixture height? What is the Z fixture height referenced to??
If I set a height ,, it is ok with only 1 of the 2 tools!!!

Scenario #2
I finish a drilling operation,, all is ok until I change drill bits (change tool length in utility), ok
Then for some reason my Z fixture height doesn't work anymore!!!!

Any operation I do,, I can only use 1 tool!!

Please help!!

#1. Quit using format 1. Use format 2. That way programs you make can be used in other Fanuc compatible controls and vice versa.

#2. Touch off all tools to the table. If you use a block be sure to enter that into the tool offset as a negative. For example, if you touch off on top of a 2" block, go back and enter -2. in that tool length.

#3. Find the height of your workpiece above the table and enter it into the fixture offset as a positive. For exapmple, if your workpiece is 6" above the table, enter +6. in the fixture offset "Z"

You want all tools in the magazine to be touched off to the table. That way, the only thing you change to set up a new part is to find its X,Y,Z location. If the tools you need are already in the magazine, no tool setting is necessary, you already did it.

This same process works on a cnc lathe too.

[Gade1000]

Thanks for the responses,,,, but it's not fixing the issue!!

I have read every post that there is on the net,, and YES I understand very clearly how this is SUPPOSED to be so easy.
I'll elaborate a little more about this issue !!

Format 1,
I am using the DT and DF to access the tool/fixture menus.
I don't know sweet ****-all about G code (g43, g84.1, g90 etc),, but I am learning very quickly!

--CS is 0.0 When the spindle is up in the home/tool change position.
--If I touch my (5) tools off on the table, it's all ok so far
Ex: tool 1 is at -24" Tool 2 is at -25". Etc etc
-- Now if I position fixture 1 at x,,, y,,, z 0.0
If I run a program, it all works, except that the spindle stays up at the 0.0 position.
In order for the spindle to come down to the piece I must set the fixture at Z -24" (for tool 1). Then z -25" (for tool 2). Etc etc

The issue is not the g-code,,, since in the menu I can send the tool to whatever fixture I chose (I do this to double check before I start).
This is how I realized something was not right.
If I put a + value for the Z. It will just go up and hit the limit.

I have read the manuals multiple times,, but as you can see , no luck!

For some reason,, it appears that it is using the fixture height relative to the CS 0 position.

[Cfin]

I am a relatively new to cnc'ing too and had similar problems getting my head round the offset thing.
I now do offsets and tool length setting in a non-conventional way ... but it works for me.

I also use format 1 and am fortunate enough to have a touch probe .... but the concept is the same - use one tool as a reference for all other tool and offset setting.
I always have the probe loaded in tool #1 slot and touch it off on a setting block (or whatever) on the table ..... whatever its "length" is, is relative to Z, 0
I then set all other tools in the toolholder the same way ..... then I go to DT and modify the length of all the tools (except tool #1) using the length of tool #1 as the modifying value ..... its easy as its value is on the screen in front of you.
Now all the tools are referenced to #1's length .... be it plus or minus if they are longer or shorter ....

When setting a fixture Z,0 I use tool #1 to set it .... yes, its the probe which makes things a little quicker .... but a block on the stock technique is doing the same thing, just remember to subtract block height ..... and your done.

It is a odd-ball way of doing it but it works for me ..... just make sure the cnc's coordinates units its working with are relative to CS Z,0 when setting tool lengths and offsets .... I often reset with the HO command before setting to make sure .... and remember to modify the Z value of any new tool you add in the future.

There is also one G code command I avoid .... think its G49 from memory ... it can cause machine run-away if its used when the Z axis is outside 2" of CS Z,0 (or something like that.... its in the Fadal manual)

[jbranting]

Do you have and H1, H2, etc call out in your program? I've noticed my machines will do that that there is no tool height in the program.

[Gade1000]

Do you have and H1, H2, etc call out in your program? I've noticed my machines will do that that there is no tool height in the program.

My issue is not the program,,,
I want to be able to enter a +positive fixture height, instead of
Ex: tool #3 is -27.5667" so in order to use that tool I must set my fixture to -27.5667.
Is there some setting in the machine that I must set?
The parts that I'm doing now are 2 tool parts,, so it's not that bad for now!!
But I must always load a second program and reset everything.

I don't understand how other guy (on this forum) are setting tool #1 to z0.
And everything is referred to tool 1.

[bostosh]

#1. Quit using format 1. Use format 2.
Do this and use UT
Nobody needs to program in machine coords ever. that's history,
From Cold Start the machine always know where it is
Offsets are just added of subtracted from these internal coordinates
one offset for fixture and set block, multiple offsets for tools.
"Gauge Line" for CAT taper holders

Look into tool offset tables for machine coordinates

[rodney247]

If you need original Fadal manuals download them FREE here heres the one explaining Format1 and Format2 and the programming examples http://itscnc.com/images/Sect_21_Formats.pdf or User Manual | ItsCnc.com

[Gade1000]

Thanks to everyone for the responses..
1. 1 have all the original and pdf manuals.
2. Like in all the other posts,, if you are prefer to drive a Ford rather than a Chevy,, that's good for you. My post processor gives me a better Format 1 results than for Format 2.
I am using Inventor w/HSM (ridiculously simple)and Format 1
I don't have the time $$$$ to start learning something new. I purchased the machine Fadal 6030 1997 with 88hs 3 weeks ago,, and it MUST start being profitable NOW!
I'm a full time welder (my own shop) 1 man show,, and this CNC is just another extra gadget I've purchased to add to the arsonal.
This was my first week using the machine,, programming / operating it is actually very easy,,
A big thanks to Google, YouTube and all these forums
For beginners I would recommend the CNC COOKBOOK G code editor, it really helps to understand the code if you have absolutely NO prior knowledge about it!! Lollllll

As for my fixture offset problem,, well Format 2 does not solve the issue....
The manuals explain how it is supposed to work,,, but not very clear with the step by step procedures sometimes.

Cfin,, I understand how you are modifying your tool lengths, etc
To be honest, I'm far from an expert here but to play with all those numbers seems a little risky. One little error can cost a lot of $$ and time.

If anyone else has any solutions,, please take a minute to answer back..
Please don't say "Well you should use Format 2", because (I'll say it again) it is not a programming issue!!

Thx

[rodney247]

Gade you are using H1, H2 etc etc after the tool change and after say your safe line G90 G0 G17 G80 correct? Which applys your length and dia. offset.

can you send me your program i will run it on our Fadal Format 1 and let you know.

I have been running Fadals for 38 years, started on the VMC45.... lol

M6T1*TOOL 1 DRILL
G90G0G17G80
S500M3
X0Y0
Z.1H1
.
.
.
.
M5M9
M6T2*TOOL 2 DRILL
G90G0G17G80
S500M3
X0Y0
Z.1H1
.
.
.
.
M5M9
M2

[jbranting]

Nothing wrong with Format 1, that's what I use with no problem, lots of complex parts, subroutines, indexers, etc.

[skywalker4]

I can understand why people use format 1, but having zo at the tool change position and just touching the tool off the part is just to simple, why do you want to go to all the trouble, touchoff and go. to simple.
remember the kiss method, people us it for a reason.............just saying

[Cfin]

--CS is 0.0 When the spindle is up in the home/tool change position.
--If I touch my (5) tools off on the table, it's all ok so far
Ex: tool 1 is at -24" Tool 2 is at -25". Etc etc
-- Now if I position fixture 1 at x,,, y,,, z 0.0
If I run a program, it all works, except that the spindle stays up at the 0.0 position.
In order for the spindle to come down to the piece I must set the fixture at Z -24" (for tool 1). Then z -25" (for tool 2). Etc etc

For some reason,, it appears that it is using the fixture height relative to the CS 0 position.

Its doing what its doing because you are setting fixture 1's Z,0 at the machines Z,0 (CS/Home)

To set fixture 1's position, you need to set X, Y, AND Z coordinates ....... so when you call up fixture 1 (E1) in your program ..... it becomes the programs X,0 Y,0 Z,0

For safety..... after a tool change ..... I insert the fixture offset (E1) and the tool length offset of the tool selected ..... e.g tool 6 - insert H6
You do not have to cancel the tool length offset in the program ..... the machine does it itself at a tool change.


I can appreciate you not wanting to modify the values in the tool table .... I thought the same thing at the time .... but its pretty idiot proof (which is why I use the method ... lol)


I can also appreciate you finding the basics of programming the thing pretty simple ...... and you wanting to push on and get some parts cut ..... but there are LOTS of little traps you can fall into when you first start out.
I don't think anyone could list them all, its more a case of finding the solution to the problem when it occurs. The Fadal manual/s I found to be invaluable as to finding the cause/s .... but at times, the answer doesn't lie where you think it is.... It's just the old learning curve thing and the more experience you get the easier it becomes ...

[rodney247]

If your running a Fadal and especially Format 1 (which is Fadal) and your only using 1 Fixture the original thought was to use SETX, and SETY ...... Leave Z at CS. Z is primarily used to adjust your Z of all tools. Originally Fadal did not have Mass modify so the Z was used to adjust all the tools. Now if you want to use Fixture Offset same idea if your using 1 Fixture just set the X and Y location leave Z at zero set all your tools the H-word will handle the Z.. H1Z0 will bring the tool to your zero of the part. Lets say you didnt set your tools so masterfully (all are off .005) then sure put the error into the Fixture offset 1 of Z.005 The main use of Multiple Fixtures with Fadal was say you have 2 vises (parts) and there is a difference Z.020 from vice1 to vice2 then in Fixture 2 you will enter the location of the X and Y of vice 2 and the Z.02 for the difference of the vices.

Unlike Fanucs where Fixture offset is normally Modal always applied. With a Fadal and in Format 1 when ever you exit or hit manual if you where in a Fixture offset(E1 or G54) they drop it so if your setting tools it can get confusing and you Typically will Bury your Tool holder into your Part if your not paying attention.

[Gade1000]

Hello again to everyone!!!!
Ok, I'm back in front of this F'n machine again,,, and I'm still having this stupid problem.

You're probably gonna say that I'm repeating myself,, but I didn't get any relevant info to help solve my problem.

1. Please don't talk about any programming,,, that's not my issue.
I'm only using the UT menu functions to try and understand.

Fadal 6030 1997 Format #1

Step 1 Using the integrated system of measuring the tool lengths,,, 2.0" dial block on top the piece to be machined. Tool #1 -19.6914 Tool #2 -19.7253 etc etc OK
Step 2 Setting the X and Y for my fixture. OK
Now, on the DF (display fixture menu) #3 Utilities,, then there is an option #8 "Move to fixture offset" (this is how I test my measurements before I start)
What do I enter as a Z value????
If I don't enter anything (0.0 automatically) the spindle stays at the CS position.
In order for tool #1 to come down to the top of the piece I must enter the tool #1 length as the fixture Z ,, but for tool #2 ,, the same Z is not good.

Is there some BS setting the the machine somewhere that the previous owner F'D with?
I understand all the procedures that the rest of you are doing,,, seems rather straight-forward... but for some reason it's not working on my machine!!!
I am very fed-up with this s--t.

Note: A little update,,
My issue has gotten worse,
I ran a 2 tool progam (#1, #2) I used the offset from tool #2 and set the tool length for #1 to -10"
and still tool #1 would go too far down!!!! Something is REALLY messed-up.

So the only way I can complete any job,, is to run a 1 tool program,,, then run a second program for the second tool!!

[skywalker4]

could you please try this, do a RI and say yes, yes ,no no.
then just set your tool on top of the part and do a SL,1 to set your length.

this how we have been doing here for years.

just touch and go.

[rodney247]

Watch this video setting tool heights on a fadal