Prefered VMC Controllers

[tbev]

I'm looking to buy a 15-25K probably 4020, I'm wondering if some off the years, roughly 1990 to 2008 are more preferable to others, if new is just better, what differences their are etc.

Thanks!

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[tbev]

Anyone have any advice on fatal controllers from 1990 to 2008?

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[vertcnc]

I have heard there are differences in the years. Hopefully someone a little more knowledgeable will help. If i remember right somewhere around 95-97 they upgraded controlled to more memory and faster processor. Also there was a change from brushed servos to brushless, don't know what year. Maybe you can call the guys at Independent Technology Service they are connected to the Founders of Fadal.

[tbev]

Thanks bud, as I find things out I'll post them here as well. I know in 1997 Haas changed to brushless motors and vector drives in their machines. I'm still considering a VF3 as well, I'm on the fence between the Haas and the Fadal honestly, the 4020 has a bit more travel, easier t find a 10k spindle, I'm pretty sure the rapids are a bit faster as well, within similar years that is. The Fadal controllers that I have seen haven't been very impressive, not that anyone elses late 90's thru early 00's controllers are kick ass, just seem to be a bit clunkier than the like year Haas' . . I'm really interested in figuring out how these things are going to handle lots of 3D Adaptive ops, long programs etc. ..but anything else anyone has in mind or experience with I would greatly appreciate hearing about.

[D.D.Machine]

I have both late 90`s Fadals and a 2000 haas control and I like the Fadal control more ,,, one HUGE upside to fadal is you can get parts for them ,,, haas quit supporting all mother boards before 2007 and if you have a board go out on the coldfire I control your looking at a $12,000 retrofit and not a cheap $1,200 anymore ...

[tbev]

I have both late 90`s Fadals and a 2000 haas control and I like the Fadal control more ,,, one HUGE upside to fadal is you can get parts for them ,,, haas quit supporting all mother boards before 2007 and if you have a board go out on the coldfire I control your looking at a $12,000 retrofit and not a cheap $1,200 anymore ...

Thanks DD! I didn't know that hass writ supporting pre 07 motherboards, that's a game changer for sure. No other third party's are available? Retrofit would be devastating for sure!

[CNCMAN172]

tbev,

Probably the most popular third part replacement controller is the Centroid for commercial type machines like the Fadal an Haas

Centroid, CNC control, CNC retrofit for cnc mill, cnc lathe, waterjet, router, laser

If you have some programming background you can go with the KFLOP/KANALOG & KmotionCNC software.
Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications

If you look on youtube you will find many commercial machines converted to run on these third party controllers.

The Centroid is turnkey so it will cost you most and you pay for software features. The Dynomotion solution requires you to buy all the building blocks and then put them in an enclosure with power supplies, etc. I did not have the money for the Centroid but do love their packages they are clearly top notch solutions. I went with the Dynomotion and must say after you get the software configured and your servos tuned it is really a nice package. The nice thing is KmotionCNC is free software if you buy their hardware. There is a dynomotion forum on cnczone and lots of helpers here. They have great support one super guy name TK from Dynomotion is nothing short of fantastic, he can resolve pretty much any issue on their platform.

Anyway check them both out as they are pretty nice solutions that are supportable, the older controllers are older and old electronics do tend to fail.

Russ

[newman55598]

You might look at the Milltronics machines also. Their tech support is too notch even if the machine is 20 years old. They still support most of their machines. If you find one get the serial number and give them a ring they are happy to help. Plus there is some great help in the forum also.


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[ARLIE B]

Basically the newer the better. I would make sure to get the "legacy control" this is the control made by Fadal. I would also stay away from the "new" Fadals that are currently being produced over seas.

[tbev]

I really like the looks of the Centroid machines, does anyone know how their probing stacks up against a Renishaw for example? I know I can't get one of their mills used or close to where I'm looking to spend, buy I was thinking about their probe setup, it's a few grand, and it looks fantastic.
I'm really not looking forward to having to retrofit something, id like to make sure I get a good grasp on what's serviceable and what's not.

Late 90s Fadal is where I'm leaning now, are there any changes during those years that you know of that make one year preferable to others?

Thanks guys, much appreciated!

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[BTA PLASMA]

Newer ones look good

[rodney247]

Calmotion uses the existing fadal layout and offers brand new control boards plug right into the original Motherboard Different look but more modern but runs the same format 1 and 2. Calmotion and Index Designs has connections with original FADAL owners go here Home Page - Calmotion or www.indexdesignscnc.com for Rotaries

[tbev]

Thanks @rodney247 !

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[slowtwitch]

Hello tbev, I've read your posts in the Tormach section and I was in a very similar situation. For almost 5 years, I made parts on a Mikini 1610L. At first it was pure hell, thanks to Mikini's electronics. But after completely redoing the machine, it has been fantastic. But as I began to sell more kits, I began to see the shortcomings of the mill. The lack of a tool changer was an issue. But more importantly, for me, was the work envelope. The machine was getting too small for what I wanted to do. I wanted to use more fixtures and cleaning out the chips became a real chore.

Anyway, I went through the process of looking for a machine for almost a year and a half. I was leaning towards a Haas, but instead, I went with a 1998 Fadal 3016L. I don't think you can go wrong with either machine. I picked the Fadal because it was local and the price was below my budget. I don't know your knowledge with machine controls, but, mine was limited to Mach3 only. The transformation from Mach to a commercial control, for me, is a bit of an adventure..lol.

I've actually never seen an industrial strength machine up close and I can say it was something of an eye opener for me when I first saw this thing. I was also wowed when I saw it running for the first time...watching all that mass moving around effortlessly..... amazing

Anyway, good luck with your decision. I'll be posting my adventures with the Fadal soon

[rodney247]

slowtwitch if you need manuals for the fadal go to Fadal Manuals | ItsCnc.com if you need a rotary go to itscnc or www.indexdesignscnc.com Rotaries made in USA

[tbev]

Hello tbev, I've read your posts in the Tormach section and I was in a very similar situation. For almost 5 years, I made parts on a Mikini 1610L. At first it was pure hell, thanks to Mikini's electronics. But after completely redoing the machine, it has been fantastic. But as I began to sell more kits, I began to see the shortcomings of the mill. The lack of a tool changer was an issue. But more importantly, for me, was the work envelope. The machine was getting too small for what I wanted to do. I wanted to use more fixtures and cleaning out the chips became a real chore.

Anyway, I went through the process of looking for a machine for almost a year and a half. I was leaning towards a Haas, but instead, I went with a 1998 Fadal 3016L. I don't think you can go wrong with either machine. I picked the Fadal because it was local and the price was below my budget. I don't know your knowledge with machine controls, but, mine was limited to Mach3 only. The transformation from Mach to a commercial control, for me, is a bit of an adventure..lol.

I've actually never seen an industrial strength machine up close and I can say it was something of an eye opener for me when I first saw this thing. I was also wowed when I saw it running for the first time...watching all that mass moving around effortlessly..... amazing

Anyway, good luck with your decision. I'll be posting my adventures with the Fadal soon

We're defiantly on the same page! I was leaning towards the haas; vf2 vf3 but the more I find out about Fadal, same years, I'm liking the 3016, 4020 much more I think. I'm feeling pretty familiar with bigger "real"mills, it really is crazy to me just how much machine you can get for around 20k, that's where I want to be, under 30k at least. I like some of the retrofit controllers so I would probably be fine buying a machine that has already been retrofit, but I'm not finding much info on the differences between the controllers of different years or the rest of the differences between morors, drives, etc. I think fadal probably changed to brushless motors and vector drives around the same time as fadal, but I'm not sure exactly, as I'm thinking is with the money for those upgrades, I'm not sure what other updatdes are worth paying for.

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[slowtwitch]

tbev, If your budget is 20k, I feel that you can get a very good machine. I paid 9K for my Fadal. It came with AC servo's and an AMC vector drive and expanded memory. The backlash on y and z were very acceptable, but, the x was at what I considered maxed out at .001". I have since replaced the ball screw and all the thrust brgs Btw, the machine also came with a small pallet changer, pneumatic operated doors and a Renishaw setup with probe and tool setter... and they work !!!!!

Another tidbit about the Fadals and I know this will create a stir, but, you can run the AC servo version Fadals on single phase... as long as you have about 240 volts. My voltage was about 235 239...depending on the hour of the day. I completely by-passed the transformer and the machine ran great. I know I'll have some power loss, but, I'm only working with aluminum and I'm not doing crazy feeds and depth of cuts. I thought about getting a rotary converter, but my budget is very limited. Besides that, I needed tooling more so than HP.

As mentioned earlier, I'll be posting my adventures in getting the mill up and running shortly. .

Keep us posted with your journey

[AutomatedIngen]

I'm glad this subject came up. I was about to start a thread myself about the same thing.

I too am looking to purchase a used machine, for the purpose of having a hobby to restore a machine, as well as in the end having a fully functional modernized VMC, with a retrofit of the control system.

I think some of the things that would be good for those of us looking to purchase used machinery would be not only finding something with a preferred controller, but finding a machine that is within the right tolerances.

I'm not sure about your experience levels Tbev, but I think it would be good if someone was to list some of the things to look for when purchasing a used machine (Ball Bar Test, etc.)

Also another concern that may help in your search would be if anyone knows of any companies that survey CNC machinery (similar to yacht surveyor). A company that has no problem going out, taking pictures, doing test, and reporting back to the customer, acting as an agent. I see on eBay alot of CNC machines saying powered up ready for inspection but at times flying or driving such a long ways is not always a possibility.

I wish you luck on your search Tbev and look forward to reading or viewing your story slowtwitch.

[warrenb]

Calmotion uses the existing fadal layout and offers brand new control boards plug right into the original Motherboard Different look but more modern but runs the same format 1 and 2. Calmotion and Index Designs has connections with original FADAL owners go here Home Page - Calmotion or www.indexdesignscnc.com for Rotaries

I bought a Calmotion a couple years ago. It was great. I had it up and running in about two hours.

[tbev]

tbev, If your budget is 20k, I feel that you can get a very good machine. I paid 9K for my Fadal. It came with AC servo's and an AMC vector drive and expanded memory. The backlash on y and z were very acceptable, but, the x was at what I considered maxed out at .001". I have since replaced the ball screw and all the thrust brgs Btw, the machine also came with a small pallet changer, pneumatic operated doors and a Renishaw setup with probe and tool setter... and they work !!!!!

Another tidbit about the Fadals and I know this will create a stir, but, you can run the AC servo version Fadals on single phase... as long as you have about 240 volts. My voltage was about 235 239...depending on the hour of the day. I completely by-passed the transformer and the machine ran great. I know I'll have some power loss, but, I'm only working with aluminum and I'm not doing crazy feeds and depth of cuts. I thought about getting a rotary converter, but my budget is very limited. Besides that, I needed tooling more so than HP.

As mentioned earlier, I'll be posting my adventures in getting the mill up and running shortly. .

Keep us posted with your journey

That's fantastic, thanks for the advice, I'd love to find something like that. What year is yours? Please share a link here when you post your thread, I'm looking forward to more!

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