06 4020 with Fanuc 18i-MB5

[chuy]

Seems a little high to me...take a look at the Haas...I'm not to crazy about the fanuc control any how I think yasnac is much more user friendly especially
when your setting up...That's one thing I like about Haas...the control you'll probably be looking at the same price with the 5th axis prewiring built in...

haascnc.com... price it out they have that build your own options on there so you'll get an idea of what your looking at..

[ltmquik]

Originally Posted by DareBee Bear in mind, with Haas you will be getting a linear bearing machine compared to a solid-way machine with the Fadal.

This is true however, I do not think that it amounts to anything. I was a Fadal die hard for years. They (Fadal) kept shoving that down our throats. Their service and quality left when G&L took over. I spent two (2) years and two (2) brand new Fadal machines before I got one that will run with minimal flaws. Most of the big time machines, Mori, OKK, Mazak, etc, use linear bearings. I switched to a HAAS and let me tell you it blows away our 2005 Fadal 4020 with Siemens 840D control.

I am not saying not to buy a Fadal, I have four (4). I just wouldn't use that as a criteria. The linear ways are bigger and better and prove to add speed and accuracy to the machine. If you are worried about them wearing out, I figure the machine gets replaced in 3-5 years anyway. I do not know of many Fadals that have been used in production that are very accurate and reliable after 5 years. I know some Moris that are 15 to 20 years old and as accurate as they were when they were new.

I agree with the other posts. The price seems high. I would think about 62K however, that also depends on your demographic area. Good Luck!

[cnckid]

Originally Posted by Scott_bob ... I mean why can't a CNC machine just be accurate in it's behavior, not some compromise of accuracy, or speed. As a programmer/machinist do you program a feature with anything besides accuracy in mind? I don't. If I want to go fast, I want to go fast accurately, period! What about you? BTW check out: http://www.creat.com/

I agree completely. Accuracy is the main goal for me as well. The link you gave shows some really nice equipment in action. Kind of wish I had seen them when I was looking to buy. When I tested my machine after delivery, the setup tech said I could run it "real fast" so we programmed a part at 300ipm and set the accuracy level to 1. I was truly amazed at how fast the machine cut my parts, and I told him, while the machine was running, "if this thing can cut my parts this fast and they still look good, I'll buy another one right now". I watched the feed rate fluctuate very little from the 300 ipm, and the machine movement was very smooth. Everything appeared great, until I checked the part after it finished. Yes it cut it, but most all of the fine detail was lost so after a few more experiments, the 110 ipm and setting of 5 on the accuracy level was what I ended up with. So, it is as you stated, why have the speed vs. accuracy variable at all? I mean what good is it to cut a part really fast if the accuracy is crap? My old Cincinnatti Sabre 750 with Acramatic 2100 control was doing the part in 18 minutes. The new machine cut that machine time to 7 minutes 20 seconds and a better finish, so I was happy.

[Scott_bob]

cnckid,

Hey that is a good improvment, what 60% faster right?
How many tool changes? To bad that A2100 control is history now. I think it had promise, till Siemens bought Vickers out and thus any competition it offered...
I noticed you said your "old Cincinnatti Sabre with this control"... Hey that is a new successful control, with some advanced features compared to "any control" that Fadal came out with. Far better don't you think?

[cnckid]

I say "old" only because it is a '97 model, and 10 years is getting up there for CNC machines now days. The A2100 control is great in my book. I had Dynapath, and Mazak controls before that one and for me it was quite an improvement over those two. Since I "upgraded" to the HSM Fanuc control, I still have to remind myself that it is not a "touch screen" like the A2100
Attached is the test part I ran. I do this kind of stuff to "relax" from the other hair pulling work that pays the bills. Tooling used, .500 endmill, .250 endmill, .125 ballnose, .125 x 90 degree.

[DareBee]

In regards to the linear ways.
I hear wgat you are saying about the linear ways.

I am sure you have seen the linear ways in a high end machine Makino, Okuma, etc. BUT the linear ways in a machine such as Fadal, Milltronics & Haas are wimpy little baby toys.

IMO comparing a Fadal linear to a Haas - the Haas blows the Fadal away, but a Haas is light compared to a Fadal boxway.
Don't get me wrong; a Haas is a great machine, I am just making a point.
The type of work should be a deciding factor on the needed way type.

[Shizzlemah]

Originally Posted by Scott_bob I mean why can't a CNC machine just be accurate in it's behavior, not some compromise of accuracy, or speed. As a programmer/machinist do you program a feature with anything besides accuracy in mind? I don't.

I must disagree. Doing a 3D roughing operation, I can deal with ±0.010 or looser. You improve the feedrate there and that's a HUGE benefit in time savings.

Sounds like you already had the slow/precise setup - look at it from the other way. I'd love to have a fast/sloppy option!!

[ltmquik]

The LW on our HAAS are the same size as on the Mori. Also, if you have a chance take a look at the casting of the HAAS vs the Fadal. I am comparing my '06 VF-3SS YT with my '05 Fadal 4020. The HAAS casting is substantially (sp) larger. If I program say for example a 1/2" dia hole, cut this with a 1/4" EM and say feeds of 60 ipm and .002 chip load, I would have to comp the tool on the Fadal up to 0.010" before I hit the numbers. Same part, same tool, and same feeds on the HAAS...No comp. In fact I can run the tool up to 120 ipm with the same results.

[Scott_bob]

Originally Posted by Shizzlemah I must disagree. Doing a 3D roughing operation, I can deal with ±0.010 or looser. You improve the feedrate there and that's a HUGE benefit in time savings. Sounds like you already had the slow/precise setup - look at it from the other way. I'd love to have a fast/sloppy option!!

IMO, 3D Roughing should be done with different toolpath than finishing.
This process should not have the same tool as the finish pass, or the same step over or scalop height, or the same speed and feed.
This would just be a waste of time. Whenever possible, Z-Level roughing should be used to maximize metal removal rate along with consistant depth of cut. And this method should not be used for finishing...
In the Die/Mold industry the longest cycle times are during finishing, and that is where the real time savings can be found. Also, the closer you can get to finish size with your roughing the better it will be for semi-finishing and finishing...
Again, machine tool builders who loosen up the machines accuracy to go faster are addressing the wrong issue with their CNC. A CNC does not have to be "loose" in order to go fast. This is just not right.

What do you say?

[ltmquik]

Moldmaking and production are two different animals. My companies provide both. With the moldmaking, we are looking at a one time shot (basically) so accuracy is the key, whereas production is get it out as fast as possible. We still need accuracy but we can generally deal with +/-.005". I have programmed 700 ipm on my Siemens controlled Fadal and obtained unexpectedly great results (within .002" of nominal). In doing so though I rarely observed the machine actually hitting the 700 ipm. Maybe on a long strait section. Anyway, unless you're in the wood business, I don't think that sacraficing dimensional stability for speed is a good idea.

[ASIGuy]

Just as Darbee says, Haas is not a fair comparison to the box way Fadal. Really, even a linear guide Fadal is not a fair comparison to a Haas. Fadal builds machines for the long run compaired to Haas and because they use heavier duty components, ie. ballscrews, bearings, spindle motors, and much more, they should be more expensive. Not to mention the BMW of controls against a Chevy Cavilaer. Be fair to yourself and your business and compare it all; machine design, torques and horsepowers (Haas fiddles with their numbers to look good. I have photos of their "40HP Vector Drive, with a Haas sticker that says right on it that it's a 20HP drive. I uploaded it for your reference. Look closely at the tag, it says 20HP direct from the factory. The spindle motor is also 20HP and that also is on the motor spec. plate.), weights, and lastly how much are you willing to see your local Haas Factory outlet to repair it all the time vs. Fadal. I did factory service for Haas for over 5 years in Idaho and they nearly retired me from all the money I made fixing them. So, please realize you are not comparing apples to apples when looking at Haas.

PS: Don't belive the argument that it's a Vector drive, so you can pull more ponies out of the motor that it's rated for. Yes, true, for a nanosecond, but not a 15 minute duty cycle as all other machine builders hold their specs to.