newly aquired VMC20, spindle noise, other questions

[mflux_gamblej]

I got myself another fadal. I've been running a 4020 for about a year and a half now. that machine is just great - and it has more or less all the bells and whistles. I used to have a Bridgeport interact 1, which is a good machine and got me into CNC. I sold that on, and bought another fadal. step and repeat success right?

my new fadal is a VMC20. this model seems to be a rarity, and it seems that it was replaced by the VMC2016. that makes sense - the VMC20 has 20 x 16 travels too. I read somewhere that the VMC20 didn't sell well for some reason.

Does anyone have anything to say of the VMC20? What is the history on that model / why was it more or less discontinued? These things are pretty much of historical interest. The specs seem in question to me, or people who are selling this model just don't know. I've read various horsepower ratings, etc.


My VMC20 has a 5HP spindle motor, a Mitsubishi inverter, and a max spindle speed of 6500 RPM. it has a 16 position tool changer, Geneva gear type. Box ways (nice!). It does not have rigid tapping.

For now, I've got the machine rigged in, have started to clean it up, and I do have it under power. The spindle makes a pretty ugly noise as far as I can tell. my 4020 spindle is very quiet compared to this VMC20. I'd like anyone to comment on how this machine sounds / should sound. Here's a youtube video where I run the spindle at some different speeds:



what do you think about that noise? it sounds like bad bearings to me, but I cannot tell if the noise is on the lower, or upper bearings, or if it is the motor's bearings, or if it is this other type of 6-belt system that makes such a racket, as apposed to the pozi drive system, which is pretty quiet.

I do not have the right t-slot nuts yet for this machine, so no test cuts to see if the surface finish is crap due to the vibration / noise.

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[mflux_gamblej]

An update, I cut down some 5/8 T-nuts to fit this 9/16 machine, so I put a vise on and did some test cuts. The surface finish is definately bad news. Also, no belts will make THAT bad of a noise. Also, it is clear that when in the cut, the bearings get loaded up slightly and you can hear the sound change quite a lot / it gets quieter when cutting. So, its gonna be a new spindle. I did know this when I purchased the machine, and got some $ off for it.

I have to admit that I am used to my 4020, which is pretty deluxe. So this smaller cheaper machine, makes me want to add back the features i am missing like rigid tapping, and the pozi-drive belt system. I did already buy probes for this machine and will install those. Probes are great.

Overall, to put this machine on par with my 4020 (except for power, and travels) it might cost like $7000 because I need a different inverter to do rigid tapping. If I get a new inverter, I may need to get a different motor too (10HP) because the inverters that do rigid tap, seem to be rated for 10HP. So I may just have to accept this machine for what it is and get myself some floating tap holders. Any good recommendations out there on which to get? I used to run a floating tap holder on my bport, that works, but you dare not program a blind hole closer than about 0.06" from the bottom. This means sometimes you have to finish tap by hand - wow what a pain and time sink.

For now though, I'll be biting the bullet on a spindle. It seems there is no cheap way to do it that is worth doing yourself - it's enough work to swap out a new cartridge on your own.

Anyone have comments on the available spindles? I am most impressed by ITS's according to their marketing anyway, and their price is lower than some. next in line would be fadalcnc.com's spindle, but they want $700 more in the end after the core charge with ITS.

[mflux_gamblej]

I tried some other tools, and ran my first program - machine seems in good shape otherwise. The surface finish is actually not that bad with other tools. The first tool i tested with happened to be a ball endmill, and it didn't side cut too well. with a normal endmill, the result is really not bad. the spindle makes one hell of a racket though. I don't think i'll be able to run the machine in this condition because of the very loud noise. especially because most of the time i'll want to run up at 6500 rpm.

so the conclusion is the same - new spindle, but really you can still get decent surface quality on what are more or less a wrecked spindle bearings.

[oz1411]

I tried some other tools, and ran my first program - machine seems in good shape otherwise. The surface finish is actually not that bad with other tools. The first tool i tested with happened to be a ball endmill, and it didn't side cut too well. with a normal endmill, the result is really not bad. the spindle makes one hell of a racket though. I don't think i'll be able to run the machine in this condition because of the very loud noise. especially because most of the time i'll want to run up at 6500 rpm.

so the conclusion is the same - new spindle, but really you can still get decent surface quality on what are more or less a wrecked spindle bearings.

Would not say u need new spindle i think its the bearings and i also think you should stop running it till its checked.

I dont know anything about that model but that noise is a bearing issue belts dont make that noise.

U can sent it in for a service or if u are prepaered to buy a new 1 then open it up replace bearings then send it of to get dynamicly ballanced.

Hope this helps or saves you money

[mflux_gamblej]

Would not say u need new spindle i think its the bearings and i also think you should stop running it till its checked.

I dont know anything about that model but that noise is a bearing issue belts dont make that noise.

U can sent it in for a service or if u are prepaered to buy a new 1 then open it up replace bearings then send it of to get dynamicly ballanced.

Hope this helps or saves you money

There is a local company that will put new bearings in for about $2000. not including installation costs (out/into the machine). Also, who knows if they dynamically balance after installation of the new bearings. I don't think that the shop that is local to me is as advanced / experienced as some of the dedicated fadal shops. As far as I can tell, buying one of the refurb spindles online is the way to go. Some places online offer repair, which is the same as refurb except you actually wait for your particular spindle to arrive back. takes longer, is about only $300. cheaper. three hundred isn't a non-issue, but it isn't enough to make me try and DIY this job. if I could do it for maybe $800, i'd be tempted to go it DIY.

[mflux_gamblej]

Here is a video showing confirmation that the problem with my new (to me) fadal is it's spindle bearings. I just spun up the spindle using a belt between a drill and a tool holder. I'm not sure of the RPM I was able to reach, maybe 1000 RPM or 1500 RPM. The video shows the spindle spinning down after my drill drive. The machine wasn't under power and both idler pulleys were retracted - meaning that neither belt was in contact with the spindle at all, and so the spindle motor is taken out of the equation here too.



So I'll buy a refurb spindle tomorrow. I'll post about the replacement and the result, maybe on a different thread about spindle replacement.

[ThatguyDave]

I rebuilt a spindle that was contaminated in a flood on a vmc15 not too long ago and so far its working fine. I used about 3-400 bucks worth of dead stock matched pair angular contact bearings sourced from ebay. Lots of digging thru defunct part numbers from various bearing mfgs.... And no, I wasn't too proud to use NACHI upper and BARDEN lowers It was an entertaining experience but if these Fadals are earning you money you'll be bucks ahead buying reman or even a new spindle from one of the parts houses. Price out a Japanese spindle and you'll appreciate just how cheap our Fadals are to keep running.

Spindle rebuilding is an art and there is little room for sloppiness. I did tons of research before my undertaking but the key points are cleanliness, judicious application of the correct Kluber(if memory treats me right) bearing grease, slow bearing breaking in by running till warm at various individual rpms while taking the time to let the spindle cool down in between, ect. Interesting stuff. There are some hilarious posts on the web about techs attempting spindle rebuilds in the field and even one instance where a tech caked a spindle together with like a tub of wheel bearing grease. Didn't end well.....

If anyones looking to learn more drop me a line. Dave

[scruz]

Call 818-727-2100 the original fadal company.. They have reman spindles for around 3000.00 dollars with a year warrenty and only takes a tech a few hours to install...

[mflux_gamblej]

Call 818-727-2100 the original fadal company.. They have reman spindles for around 3000.00 dollars with a year warrenty and only takes a tech a few hours to install...

It would be unfortunate if this forum got hijacked on this note, but everyone that owns a fadal knows that there is no original fadal company anymore - so you have some more explaining to do on that. Why should we buy a spindle from a company that simply purchased the company name, instead of from the techs that actually used to work at fadal back in the day? I'm going with experience over brand name on this one..

[carbidecraters]

Its a a basic cartridge spindle with a ton of sub $3K (guaranteed 12000rpm spindle bearing/rated at 10K) avalialble online from fadalparts.com, ebay ...ect. Not spendy but I would install the std 10K spindle.

[scruz]

It would be unfortunate if this forum got hijacked on this note, but everyone that owns a fadal knows that there is no original fadal company anymore - so you have some more explaining to do on that. Why should we buy a spindle from a company that simply purchased the company name, instead of from the techs that actually used to work at fadal back in the day? I'm going with experience over brand name on this one..

What techs from the old fadal rebuild spindles? none.. and if they do it would not last long.

[scruz]

Who owns fadalparts.com.....Not Fadal.....

[carbidecraters]

FadalCNC.com is the place besides ITS. Fadal doesnt even own Fadal anymore.