Fadals new Augusta control or 104d

[Scott_bob]

We had Fadal Engineering do a test cut for us using their new Augusta control, otherwise known as the 104d.

Its pretty fast, has good compatibility with legacy Fadal routines, is supposed to be their new control on all the CNC line by early 2004.

Fadal has finally decided to address the serious deficiencies in their control designed in the 1980’s. That is 15 years ago!

The CNC industry should not tolerate any longer poor performance and high repair and component prices!

Why should we have to pay hundreds of $s for memory, keyboards, even the PC in an MP32 control option is 3 times what a PC would cost… And how about the price they ask for a floppy drive, you’ve gotta be kidding!

Is there any interest out there in discussing the limitations and solutions for this aging CNC control?

I’d be glad to help…

Scott_bob

[Klox]

Welcome to CNCzone Scott_bob!
Personally i don't know anything about the Fadal Control. It's an interesting point you make on spares, repairs to CNC controls.

Do you have knowledge on other controls? I think this can get a very interesting topic.....

Klox

[cadman]

About 1 1/2 years ago I was told Fadal was coming out with a new controller and it was supposed to be at WESTEC this past year, so its a good thing they are finally going to release it.

I would like to see them support the NURBS G code (G62.2 ?). My cam system will output NURBS and right now roughly 90% of my work coming in is entirely NURBS surfaces. For the most part my controller (-5) works fairly good, but when the toolpaths start to contain lots of simultaneous XYZ points on steep surfaces (especially "L" shaped), the machine starts to jerk and can't keep up with the programmed feedrate.

cadman

[Scott_bob]

I have some experience...
28 years, ugh!
25 years CNC...

Mostly, Fanuc, Fadal, Allen Bradley, Bandit, Tree, Yasnak, oh a bunch more I guess...

But enough about me.
HSM is a revolution in our industry. It is being promoted not so much by machine tool builders at large, but by other high tech players.
End Mills or Cutting Tools have evolved to a state that currently they can go much faster than most CNC machines can go smoothly.
Let me stop here with this. What is meant by smooth motion control?
Automatic Feed reduction?
Fadals ansewer to this is to slow the feed at the end of every block of code. But this is only good when a sharp change in direction is next. Slowing the feed rate when there is not a sharp change in direction is just a waste of time. And in 3D machining, Hugh amounts of time...
In 3D, usually the code is point to point or linear, (but not always) and Fadal has done some work here to improve performance, but that should be another point.

I like the point that one guy on this site says:
1st you get it right, then you go faster...

[Rekd]

Hi bob, err.. scott.

I didn't vote because the option I would have voted for is not there. (I'll refrain from stating what that option would be). I've used fadals since the early '80s and I'm here to tell you that the controller is nearly the only thing I liked about them. The 'real' keyboard, the functions and utils etc.

'Rekd

[Scott_bob]

what is the factor that:

"most" significantly affects High Speed Machining on a Fadal
HSM is most commonly defined as feed rates above what the Fadal is capable of delivering.

Feeds lower than 300 IPM would be not be considered HSM by some industry definitions. HSM is somewhat relative, because we all refer to processes that are faster than what has been possible to date on our own machinery. But I think that using the phase HSM when we are using feed rates in this lower range of the spectrum <300 IMP, deminishes the term HSM.

The term High Velocity Machining should definetly be reserved for describing processes higher than 1000 IPM. At this level there is much less discussion going on.

There are CNCs out there accurately feeding at "programmed" feeds from 1000 to 3000 IPM. Not on a Fadal...

I say "programmed feeds" because a good control with intelligent look ahead and feed optimization can be programmed at an optimum feed rate for the tool in use, and the control slows down relative to the angular change in dirrection. Like the Fadal does in point to point, only with a much higher degree of accuracy.

Using a .187 dia. Carbide End Mill. How fast can your Fadal mill a slot .250" x 1.000" and hold +/-.001 in 6061-T6 Aluminum say .2 dp?

Feed = ?

[Rekd]

Using a .187 dia. Carbide End Mill. How fast can your Fadal mill a slot .250" x 1.000" and hold +/-.001 in 6061-T6 Aluminum say .2 dp?

On the Fadals I've run... about 15 IPM, and even then I wouldn't guarentee +-.001



Of course, things may have changed in the last 5 or 10 years since I've used them.

'Rekd

[Scott_bob]

ref:

Posted by Rekd on 12-09-2003 07:47 PM:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Using a .187 dia. Carbide End Mill. How fast can your Fadal mill a slot .250" x 1.000" and hold +/-.001 in 6061-T6 Aluminum say .2 dp?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the Fadals I've run... about 15 IPM, and even then I wouldn't guarantee +-.001
***************************************************

That sounds just about right... On a Fadal the slot width could be held +/-.001 going NO faster than F15.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I should have described the end of the slot for this discussion better, it would have R.125 on both ends, so it would be oval, (G03 at both ends)...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This Slot length would NOT be +/-.001

Why?
Because the Fadal Control is not accurate within +/-.001 in circular interpolation at feeds higher than F40. Not even the New Augusta or 104d...

A CNC machine uses what is called the "feedback loop" to control the current position in a move as constantly as it is capable of processing. The CNC with the tightest feedback loop will be the most accurate; the loosest feedback loop will be the least accurate.

Let’s face the facts here; we all get what we pay for, right?
The low end priced CNC will not be as tight as the high end priced CNC.

Would any of the Lower priced CNC users out there disagree with this observation:

Accuracy of +/-.001 interpolated circles smaller than .500 in diameter or R.250
Feed NO faster than F15.
Accuracy of +/-.001 interpolated circles bigger than 1.000 diameter or R.500
Feed NO faster than F40.

Anyone perform Renishaw Ball Bar tests on your CNC to see why?
Renishaw identifies and rates the factors as to their affect on circularity…

By the way Rekd, what was that “other” contributing factor that you wanted to include in the poll?

Scott

[Rekd]

Originally posted by Scott_bob ref: Posted by Rekd on 12-09-2003 07:47 PM: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Using a .187 dia. Carbide End Mill. How fast can your Fadal mill a slot .250" x 1.000" and hold +/-.001 in 6061-T6 Aluminum say .2 dp? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On the Fadals I've run... about 15 IPM, and even then I wouldn't guarantee +-.001 *************************************************** That sounds just about right... On a Fadal the slot width could be held +/-.001 going NO faster than F15. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I should have described the end of the slot for this discussion better, it would have R.125 on both ends, so it would be oval, (G03 at both ends)... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This Slot length would NOT be +/-.001 Why? Because the Fadal Control is not accurate within +/-.001 in circular interpolation at feeds higher than F40. Not even the New Augusta or 104d... A CNC machine uses what is called the "feedback loop" to control the current position in a move as constantly as it is capable of processing. The CNC with the tightest feedback loop will be the most accurate; the loosest feedback loop will be the least accurate. Let’s face the facts here; we all get what we pay for, right? The low end priced CNC will not be as tight as the high end priced CNC. Would any of the Lower priced CNC users out there disagree with this observation: Accuracy of +/-.001 interpolated circles smaller than .500 in diameter or R.250 Feed NO faster than F15. Accuracy of +/-.001 interpolated circles bigger than 1.000 diameter or R.500 Feed NO faster than F40. Anyone perform Renishaw Ball Bar tests on your CNC to see why? Renishaw identifies and rates the factors as to their affect on circularity… By the way Rekd, what was that “other” contributing factor that you wanted to include in the poll? Scott

You're absolutely right, Scott. To do a circle THAT small with a Fadal would take an act of congress..

Have another look at the poll, in which I have now voted.. (WoW, I tied it up!) My second choice would be the programmed tool path, as it would directly affect the functionality via Feeds.

'Rekd

[Scott_bob]

Ref. (new entry in the Poll)…

A Different Controller/Machine

Response by,

Matt
CNCZone Community Director
San Diego, Ca

Your problem is my problem. Unless I have a problem with your problem. In which case we have a problem.


This is absolutely my point!
So, to ask again the Poll Question:

What is the most significant factor in High Speed Machining on a “Fadal”

Your answer is door #1 or CNC control right?

Remember the question is “on a Fadal”… You are absolutely right, that without either changing the control, in which case the CNC would no longer be a Fadal or, change the whole CNC, true HSM is not possible!

Ref.
HSM is most commonly defined as feed rates above what the Fadal is capable of delivering.

Feeds lower than 300 IPM would be not be considered HSM by some industry definitions. HSM is somewhat relative, because we all refer to processes that are faster than what has been possible to date on our own machinery. But I think that using the phase HSM when we are using feed rates in this lower range of the spectrum <300 IMP, deminishes the term HSM.


Is any body out there interested in a solution to this problem of doing HSM on a Fadal CNC VMC or HMC, or any other low end CNC machine?
There are solutions!

Come on, chime in folks…

The only way you’re going to get your favorite Machine Tool Builder to listen to your demands is by leveraging your opinion!
Is your CNC builder listening to you?

Best Regards,
Scott

[Rekd]

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but I've got an idea.

Mayhaps you should re-phrase the question. As I read it, it is limiting me to a choice of what's already available on the Fadal. Perhaps a question like "What is the most significant change Fadal could make to improve/add performance for HSM" Or "What is the most significant 'limiting' factor in High Speed Machining on a Fadal"

Just a thought.

BTW, are you a Fadal user, rep, engineer, lawyer or what? You mention you 'can help', in what ways?

'Rekd

[Scott_bob]

Ref.
__________________
Mayhaps you should re-phrase the question. As I read it, it is limiting me to a choice of what's already available on the Fadal. Perhaps a question like "What is the most significant change Fadal could make to improve/add performance for HSM" Or "What is the most significant 'limiting' factor in High Speed Machining on a Fadal"
__________________


I'll try to improve the Poll Question, (If there is an admin looking, go for it, I tried but I don't have access even though I started the thread)
I like your suggestion:
__________________
What is the most significant 'limiting' factor in High Speed Machining on a Fadal
__________________

To your BTW, Qu.
Yes, no, yes, no
And I can only help by passing on my experience.

Would you or anyone else be interested in making your CNC Milling machine accurate in 2D or 3D contouring?
Matt, you are correct, you cannot get there with a Fadal control, old or new...
"There" means to me; true HSM or smooth accurate feed rates ABOVE 300 IPM for Aluminum, and smooth accurate feeds for harder materials 3-5 times the feeds possible on the lower end CNC machines out there...

Keep in mind that HSM means:
lighter depth of cuts at very high feeds, with better cutting tools and more RPM...
(very generally defined)
HSM is more a process, than a destination.

I'll give as much info as you want to hear.
Is anyone else interested besides Matt?

Regards,
Scott