104/d mess

[Scott_bob]

The Enron scandal is in the courts so we don't know what the verdict is yet on managements behavior. But from what we know of so far, they were hiding debt from the shareholders, banks, irs in offshore accounts. Enron was a multinational company with locations all over the world (offshore). The senior managers suggested what to do to the accountants, who followed orders... Ethics guidlines should have prevented them from lawbreaking, but they all thought they could get away with it. I'm not sure but I think someone inside finally informed. The right thing to do...

What's my point? They all knew what they were doing wrong.
You don't think that Fadal did not know what they were doing? I think they did.
They assumed they'd get away with it. It's not as easy to pull the wool over our eyes out here in the mfg community now that we have the internet. Without this information tool, those of us with 104d control CNC's would not be as informed.

Thanks CNCzone,

[unterhaus]

I'm impressed by the level of experience here. Fadal might not be

It would be interesting to know who screwed up. On first glance, it would appear that there should be some software guys looking for jobs, but, in the end, its management's fault.

Once I was in a meeting where the big boss threw a pencil down on the table to make a point because an engineer wanted to run another test. Managers hate to pay for tests. Of course, the point would have been made better if the pencil hadn't bounced off of the eraser and flown across the room. We all would have been scared more about making him mad if it weren't for the fear of getting stabbed by that pencil.

Enron came out when the game they were playing finally crashed on them, not before. The crooked deals that Enron was making are just amazing, I doubt there has ever been anything like it outside the mob. Fadal, on the other hand, is in a business where very few people would actually miss them if they went under, everyone would move on. And I'm thinking there are some people in China dreaming of putting them under. So shipping this control was an incredible blunder, but it's human nature to try to insist that your product is ok, and infer to your customers that they are idiots.

[surface]

Unterhaus is correct in saying that the 104D was the fault of management, but I think the underlaying cause was the change in management. Fadal started as a "mom and pop" type of operation. For more than 30 years, they flew "by the seat of their pants" yet it was never an issue. Engineering was done by just a few capable people and management was able to "put out fires" on the fly.
When G&L took over, and subsuquently sold to Thyssen, Francis and sons Adrian, Dave And Larry were replaced by boards of executives who don't understand the product which they are making and need to conference when problems arise. In the old days, most problems were adressed by the time dessert got to the table.

[mad mark]

midfield jake,

Yes after a lot of very stern words fadal took care of all frieght, rigging and set-up of three machines. We paid for the first one (the 104/d) they paid to have the used 4020 sent up by truck from california, and set up. Then when it was to wore out to even operate, they took care of getting it out and the loner remanned 3016 with 88 control put in (which we ended up buying also). Then when our new 4020 with 32mp control came they took care of getting it in also. They did take care of getting every thing in and up and running, but the down time over the eight months of the 104/d combined with sending us a totally wore out loner (the z axis ways were so bad the table would not sweep in the range of my interapid indicator!! .060"!!!) left a very very sour taste in our mouths!!!!

Mark

[MidfieldJake]

As promised, I said I would let you all know what my outcome was with Fadal.

In short, they made everything right. So much so, that I ended up buying a another Fadal (a 4525) which is making chips as I speak. They are in the process of swapping out the 104/D control today on our 6030, so it should be running in another day or two.

I must say, that despite their enormous blunder, they bent over backwards to make things right with us. In fact, I had made up my mind to switch to Haas, but Fadal went "above and beyond" to make things right, so I'm giving them another chance.

I know that their profits are going to take a hit to pay for their 104D mistake, but if they treat everyone right - like they treated me - we'll still be buying Fadal's years down the road.

People (and companies) will make mistakes; it's how they react after the mistake that determines their worth. And as far as I'm concerned, Fadal has done a commendable job in that department.

[nervis1]

Nice to hear, thanks for the followup.

[gus]

Not to defend managers, but no manager wrote all that bad code. Someone was a hack, and either the managers didn't know it or made it worse

[MidfieldJake]

It dawned on me about two months ago, that this control was doomed from the start. Why? It was based on Windows.

Think about it, we all have problems with Windows running regular desktop applications - a random lock up, files getting corrupt, etc. - and invariably, Windows will release a patch, new drivers or an update to fix it.

So basing a machine's control on Windows may sound like a great idea at first, but in retrospect, if Windows can't run software flawlessly, how can we expect it to run a machine tool?

And what happens when Microsoft finally gets Windows to run correctly? They issue a new Windows (95 to 98... 98 to ME... ME to 2000... 2000 to XP... XP to Vista)

So even in a perfect world, if this control worked properly, 8 years down the road, it's operating system would not be supported... and Fadal would be updating the old machines with new Windows...opening another batch of bugs to be worked out of the controls....

Just thinking out loud... not trying to start anything with anyone....

[Scott_bob]

MidfieldJake,

I agree completely! Windows is the wrong operating system for automation, especially high speed automation for the very reasons you stated.
The only thing is, WE ASKED FOR IT! Didn't we... Be honest, you wanted it all to work on your CNC, multi tasking, GUI, Networking, "I" did...
The machine tool builders listen to their customers wants, then design their products to meet that demand. Even Fanuc for the longest time held out against the windows market forces until recently (last 5 years). Now windows is used on the new Fanuc controls. I hope, this is not their downfall as well... As much as I like the interface of our new Fanuc 18i control, using the machine for anything but running CNC programs is a waste of time... It has all the junk that customers wanted: onboard CAM, mouse, networked... It's just a bunch of bells and whistles. I would not use the CAM to make a program with, that's what the PC in the office is for. Anyway I'm just rambling aren't I...

Bill Gates, get out of my CNC!