Epoxy-Granite machine bases (was Polymer concrete frame?) - Page 135


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  1. #2681
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    I've got to get me some Moglice, the last time I saw this stuff was 18 years ago.



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    Member greybeard's Avatar
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    I think I misread the concept of your previous post.
    I thought you'd put six screws into one tube.
    John

    It's like doing jigsaw puzzles in the dark.
    Enjoy today's problems, for tomorrow's may be worse.


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    Default Moglice

    Jack,
    Compositon of Moglice is as follows: (source Free Patents online or Google "Moglice composition):

    Title:Antifriction paste and solid antifriction coating prepared from same Document Type and Number:United States Patent 4329238 Link to this page:http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4329238.html, you can create a login account for free, the information is really worth it!! PDF versions are available for certain patents.


    Abstract:An antifriction paste containing epoxy resin, molybdenum disulphide, graphite, aluminum, copper, alumosilicate and polyethylenepolyamine, the components being used in the following proportions (in parts by weight):
    epoxy resin: 40-80

    molybdenum disulphide: 15-30

    graphite: 10-15

    aluminum: 5-10

    copper: 5-10

    alumosilicate: 8-15

    polyethylenepolyamine: 5-10.

    The antifriction paste may also contain a solvent for the epoxy resin in an amount from 5 to 30 parts by weight. This paste is suitable for both small-and large-size friction assemblies. On the basis of this paste a solid lubricating coating with high antifriction performance is produced. Thus, a coefficient of sliding friction ffr. at a sliding speed V=0.06 m/s at a load P=10 kgf/cm2 is 0.2; linear wear rate Ih under the same conditions is 1.0.10-9, and service life is as high as 500 km.

    There are a bunch of slippery ingredients contained in Moglice, I wonder if MO Dissulphide is available in small qties.

    Best regards

    Bruno

    Last edited by brunog; 01-19-2008 at 04:31 PM. Reason: add further comments


  4. #2684
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    Bloody ell I need to keep better care of this bottle! I just so happen to have a 10oz bottle of Dow Corning Molykote Z (pure molybdenum disulphide) rolling around the bottoms of my roll around. Must have been there for the last 25 years!
    Found it on McMaster-Carr (4328T62) for $63! Removed to a better place.

    http://www.dowcorning.com/applicatio...6002&type=PROD

    http://www4.dowcorning.com/DataFiles...c88003800e.pdf



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    Member ger21's Avatar
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    Cheap on Ebay.
    http://tinyurl.com/265wfn

    Gerry

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    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Registered lgalla's Avatar
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    Gerry's link as has teflon powder also.1/4lb for$7.00.
    Thanks Gerry>
    Larry

    L GALILEO THE EPOXY SURFACE PLATE IS FLAT


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    Wow, you guys have really come a long way since I posted the first thread about this when the site first started. Thanks everyone that has gone much deeper into the science on this.

    No idea when I will get around to using this though. I have electronics junk to finish up first. But I guess I will start thinking about how far you can mold everything on a machine. Tensile elements will have problems. So ball screws probably need to be metal. Very slow spindles could probably be composite except the bearings. But anything running at a reasonable speed would need to be metal.

    Are these materials tough enough to be used for molded on ways? I would imagine the top layer would need some sort of tough lubricant layer.



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    '"Bruno, That would certianly make a good Moglice substitute. My only concerns are the hardness of zeeospheres acting as an abrasive. The addition of teflon powder might mitigate this."SORRY THE QUOTE DID NOT WORK ed,
    Jack the zeeospheres are 7to8 on the mohs hardness scale,same as tool steel.I am not sure,but ballscrews are Rc58 probably much harder than the spheres so the zeos should not cause excessive wear.They are still ballbearings locked in a matrix.Check page 2 of the PDF.The spheres should still have some bearing action.
    This surface action is similar to micronized waxes in paints and inks.Pop cans seem to have tough surfaces,but it is micronized wax in the coating which is like bearings on the surface.Abrasion is reduced as things just slip over the surface.
    Confused?I am.Hope you understand the drift.I haven't used any of this technology for 25yearsand may be out of date not to mention my poor memory.
    On hydraulic pressure:Take an inch long1/4-28 grade 8 socket screw in to an inch deep threaded hole with some oil in the blind hole and chances are the hydraulic pressure will strip the threads.
    Larry

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Epoxy-Granite machine bases (was Polymer concrete frame?)-microspheres-selection-pdf   Epoxy-Granite machine bases (was Polymer concrete frame?)-drink-gif  
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    Larry, I had imagined a large gap created by the application of many coats of PVA. By large I mean perhaps a 1 mm. Nevertheless, even that is probably not enough.

    So failing that, perhaps we cast a wooden dowel wrapped in plastic wrap and let that cure. Remove the dowel. Wax and release the screw and insert back in the tube and fix in place.
    Drill (or cast in) 1/4" holes every inch down the pipe and use them to inject MogSub (nickname) around the screw. Cure, clean, and use.

    This one would not really need a run through the aggregate simulator because all the aggregates are roughly the same size, 1 to 10 microns. However, from the expire patent 4329238 we can try an off the cuff mixture to see how it performs.
    Because all the particles are small, the amount of epoxy is much larger.
    Making 100 grams of this would be:
    • 50 grams epoxy 635 2:1 (with BYK A-525 and BYK W-969 if you have it.)
    • 20 grams of molly-be-damned (molybdenum disulphide powder).
    • 15 grams Graphite powder.
    • 5 grams Aluminum powder.
    • 5 grams Copper powder.
    • 5 grams Teflon powder.
    • And a drop of Tungsten Disulfide

    Sound right? Comments?

    Last edited by jhudler; 01-19-2008 at 09:32 PM. Reason: Tungsten Disulfide


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    Jack,
    I suggest adding about 10 grams of zeeospheres in the mixture to add some abrasion resistance and hardness to the slippymix.

    Best regards

    Bruno



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    Larry,
    Did you receive my reply from your PM?

    Let me know

    Bruno



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    Quote Originally Posted by brunog View Post
    Jack,
    I suggest adding about 10 grams of zeeospheres in the mixture to add some abrasion resistance and hardness to the slippymix.
    Yep I think your right, that would replace the alumosilicate properties in the patent.

    Thanks!



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    Jack,
    I believe zeeospheres are an improvement to alumosilicate as they are harder and much less abrasive.

    Bruno



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    100 Grams total: powders should be in the 1 to 20 micron

    • 50 grams epoxy 635 2:1 (with BYK A-525 and BYK W-969 if you have it.)
    • 10 grams of Molybdenum disulphide powder or Hexagonal Boran Nitrite.
    • 10 grams Graphite powder (still wondering why on this one).
    • 10 grams 3M 200 Zeeospheres.
    • 5 gram Tungsten Disulfide. (if you can't afford then up the teflon)
    • 5 grams Teflon powder.
    • 5 grams Aluminum powder. (probably can drop this and up the Zeeo's)
    • 5 grams Copper powder. (probably can drop this and up the MoS2)


    I'll give this a try soon as everything comes in.

    I've got a ball screw that I can used to test... the ball nut screwed off it. Never got it back on right. Think some of the bearings went on a roll about too.

    Jack



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    Bruno& Jack.
    The alumosilicate is probably important as it is a microporous material.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeolite
    Bruno my PM has loaded up fast.Please try again.
    Larry

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    Larry, From what I've seen in Zeeospheres, it appears they have some porosity.
    If you wipe oil the surface they appear to retain some of it.



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    Member greybeard's Avatar
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    Default An experiment to justify vibration and observe the results using a"dry"mix.

    I took a ~30ml plastic beaker and filled it, "tapping" the beaker for about 1 minute, then scraping the top level in order to get some sort of consistency in compaction, in turn with a series of aggregates. These were then weighed and poured into a larger plastic beaker.

    Stirring became more difficult as each portion was added, until the cabosil was added, when the mixture appeared to collapse when stirred, much like a 'solid' thixotropic mixture.

    Asgo quartz..Q4............1 - 1.5mm ..45.8gm
    ditto............Q2.....300um - 500um ..46.2gm
    ditto............Q1/2..100um - 200um...42.6gm
    Zeeospheres..G-200........................32.7gm
    Cabosil ..........................................1.6gm

    Total weight = 168.9gm
    Initial volume (5 x 31.7ml) = 158.5ml

    After the mixture had been stirred it was transferred to a measuring cylinder and stood on an orbital sander and vibrated for about 2 minutes.
    The volume reduced over that time to 100ml, showing a compaction of ~33%, and a final 'density' of ~1.6gm/cc

    This points to the compaction possible with vibration, even without any applied pressure, as the smaller particles get into the spaces between the larger ones, so that if the epoxy can be added with the minimum air entrapment, we should be well on the way to maximising the strength of the resulting mix.

    John

    It's like doing jigsaw puzzles in the dark.
    Enjoy today's problems, for tomorrow's may be worse.


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    Hi People,
    I know very little (other than I have read on this thread) about epoxy concrete but do know a little on cement concrete. The basis of the design of cement based concrete is that the sand fills the voids between the pieces of screening (typically 20mm size) and then the cement fills the voids between the grains of sand. 3 of screenings, 2 of sand and 1 of cement is a formula that is often used in general work. The water content is normally just enough to get the mix to flow with a vibrator so you can remove all the airvoids and ensure the mix completely fills your moulds or formwork. From what I have read in the last 200 posts, I have seen nothing that changes the view that this same logic would work here. Just that epoxy is a much better adhesive than cement.
    FWIW the mass of concrete to provide a base for a high accuracy machine tool is typically calculated to be 10 times the mass of the machine. Then that piece of concrete is insulated from the remainder of the floor. 20mm foam strips or similar.



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    Quote Originally Posted by rad45 View Post
    Hi People,
    I know very little (other than I have read on this thread) about epoxy concrete but do know a little on cement concrete. ............ From what I have read in the last 200 posts, I have seen nothing that changes the view that this same logic would work here. Just that epoxy is a much better adhesive than cement............ .
    Welcome rad45. It's always good to draw in as wide a level of experience as possible to this thread.
    With over 2500 posts on this thread there is a lot of good research material based on a wide variety of resources.
    While I understand most people's reluctance to spend time reading all the posts, valuable information regarding the behaviour of more complex recipes has been given in earlier contributions.
    The practical work being done does show that a wide variability in mixtures will work, but a large part of this thread is about maximizing the strength of the E/G, and for that a lot of postings may seem to be overly complicating the issue.
    I, for one, am going a slightly different route by spin casting my components, but that still allows me to acquire useful info from the others.

    Regards
    John

    It's like doing jigsaw puzzles in the dark.
    Enjoy today's problems, for tomorrow's may be worse.


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    Default optimal volume

    Quote Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
    Total weight = 168.9gm
    Initial volume (5 x 31.7ml) = 158.5ml

    After the mixture had been stirred it was transferred to a measuring cylinder and stood on an orbital sander and vibrated for about 2 minutes.
    The volume reduced over that time to 100ml, showing a compaction of ~33%, and a final 'density' of ~1.6gm/cc
    John
    John,
    Good work!!
    Based on your experiment and considering the following densities:

    Quartz: 2.66 g/cc
    g200 zeeosgheres: 2.55 g/cc
    Cabosil : .05g/cc (pour density??)

    You were able to achieve a mix that has only 4.8% air space or voids if you prefer (95.42 cc if no air space at all)

    This result was calculated as follows:

    quartz weight: 45.8 + 46.2 + 42.6 = 134.6 g

    optimum quartz volume: 134.6/2.66= 50.6cc
    g200 weight : 32.7 g
    optimum g200 volume: 32.7/2.5 = 13.08

    cabosil weight: 1.6 g
    optimum Cabosil volume: 1.6/2.2= .73cc

    optimum volume with no entrapped air 64.41cc, the only way to get to this number would be to melt the above and cast them under vaccuum. The idea is to get as close a possible to it.

    Nice results!!!

    Does this make any sense??

    Best regards

    Bruno

    Last edited by brunog; 01-21-2008 at 07:35 PM. Reason: added cabosil info


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