Wind Power Questions

[dhellew2]

Wind power. The question was about why wind machines seldom seem to be running, questioning if maintenance might be the problem, all that oil and grease.

The reason is demand, of lack of it. The only way to keep the machines running full time is by installing massive banks of storage batteries so the energy can be used when people want it. The wind seldom blows exactly when the electricity is needed.

Since the cost of the machines and running them is so high, the cost of installing batteries would bankrupt the owners.

Were it not for the laws, economics would dictate and there would be a lot less wind farms. National average electric cost is somewhere around 10 cents per kWh. Wind power cost without batteries is around 15 cents per kWh.

Don't forget about all the environmental issues surrounding batteries!

Should you dig out the whole truth, look at both sides of every story you will usually find that the only thing green is the color of the money.

Dale

[One of Many]

Well, truth is in the eye of the beholder. Minimize the negatives and/or ignore the positives. The end user is not given an option regardless.

The real cost be Damned!

DC

[Dualkit]

Originally Posted by dhellew2 Wind power. The question was about why wind machines seldom seem to be running, questioning if maintenance might be the problem, all that oil and grease. The reason is demand, of lack of it. The only way to keep the machines running full time is by installing massive banks of storage batteries so the energy can be used when people want it. The wind seldom blows exactly when the electricity is needed. Since the cost of the machines and running them is so high, the cost of installing batteries would bankrupt the owners. Were it not for the laws, economics would dictate and there would be a lot less wind farms. National average electric cost is somewhere around 10 cents per kWh. Wind power cost without batteries is around 15 cents per kWh. Don't forget about all the environmental issues surrounding batteries! Should you dig out the whole truth, look at both sides of every story you will usually find that the only thing green is the color of the money. Dale

I would buy 15 cent electricity all day I pay 40 cents in the summer from the thieves called SCE. The problem with wind power generation is the turbines need to turn at a fixed speed to produce 60hz power so they cannot run wide open and waste energy with their braking systems. Battery banks to store energy would be bigger than the wind mill farms. Solar power is probably the way to go, but since there are few plants that make the panels
and all but one of them are out of the country the plants are expensive to build. We need to get away from dependence on foreign oil and unrenewable
dirty power, that just makes sense all the way around.

[dhellew2]

Solar is no better than wind... same problems with demand and the need for batteries. To make matters worse solar costs twice as much as wind and only works when the sun shines. Don't forget to keep them clean because the dust drasticly reduces the output. Bet the salesman forgot to mention this!

In sunny Cal or Arizona solar water heaters are a fantastic idea.

Bottom line, wind and solar are not reliable nor cost effective sources for energy.

Another thought.. every time energy is converted from one form to another energy is lost. Converting wind and solar DC power to AC power is no exception. Not a efficient as some would have you believe.

Did you know that without cogen burning fossil fuel to generate electricity loses as much as 40% of the potential energy.

Dale

[Dualkit]

Solar technology is getting better, they have developed liquids that retain heat much longer. The new technology is using the panels to heat liquid, which creates thermal energy to turn turbines, the new liquids allow the plant to create power even at night.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Solar_One

[Geof]

Originally Posted by dhellew2 ....Did you know that without cogen burning fossil fuel to generate electricity loses as much as 40% of the potential energy. Dale

You are far too optimistic thermal plants, steam, gas turbines, diesels do not get better than about 40% efficient; in other words 60% or more of the heat energy is lost.

[HuFlungDung]

I've heard, or supposed, that 'the grid' is the battery. However, I have no idea over what distance it is feasible to transmit electicity from the generator.

Society as it exists now, is inefficient at using power when it is available because we've never had to make that concession.

I wonder if electicity from transient sources would be better used for something like aluminum recovery, or something that could take more or less current on a variable basis...as the wind blows or the sun shines. This would or could free up other constant power generators on the grid to serve less flexible consumers.

[Geof]

Hu; Have you read anything about the "Smart Grid". What you are suggesting is what I have seen described in some magazine articles. The idea of the smart grid is that both supply and demand would be monitored in real time and consumers would have control systems that were under the control of a central monitoring station. This way when transient power declinded the ones who could accommodate being cut off get disconnected to keep the system balanced. The problem is that it is largely theoretical so far because it will require almost a complete rebuild of the electrical distribution system.

Wikipedia has some stuff about it but as is to be expected there is controversy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

[dhellew2]

There isn't much loss transmitting electricity long distances if you jack up the voltage. There is a DC line that goes from Washington State all the way to Los Angeles. Problem with DC is that you cannot tap into the line and divert the power elsewhere without a lot of expensive equipment. There are losses converting to DC then back to AC. These lines are typically 230 to 500 thousand volts.

The most efficient solar system I know of is a parabolic system is in the Mojave Desert in California. Heats liquid to run a generatior. Still only works when the sun shines.

Now matter how efficient the solar panels they will never be reliable, and I repeat, due to demand, which is not necessarily controllable by people, wind and solar without batteries is energy wasted. In the Southern states demand is typically for air conditioning. In the northern states demand is most often heating which occurs 24/7, more at night because it is colder, and no sun to be seen anywhere.

Here is the big, really big problem. The grid must be able to handle any load that is placed upon it or the whole system goes down. Putting all our dollars into unreliable energy sources also puts the entire grid system at risk. Wind and solar are not the sole answer as the government would like everyone to believe. Just because Gore thinks it is so doesn't make it so!

How about methane hydrate, said to be more plentiful than all the crude already used and that known to exist. It's too cheap. Money talks.

Lots of talk about electric cars... but nothing about where the power comes from to charge the batteries. As one thread said, 60 loss converting gas to electricity. My guess is that it is more efficient to burn gas in the car instead.

Dale

[dhellew2]

The smart grid may be a nice idea but I doubt will ever be a reality. No matter what the system is or becomes a reliable source of power must be available at all times, enough to cover the unexpected. All over the US there are already systems that help reduce peak demand. In the midwest some utiliites furnish floor heat wire to their customers because the mass stores heat allowing the utility to turn off the heat during peak loads.

Many large businesses recieve discounts because they have propane standby system that allow the power to be turned off during peak, including AEC in California.

It is virtually impossible to determine when loads will increase or decrease. The only solution is to make certain enough generation capacity is online to cover any sudden demand or BLACKOUT! Forget wind and solar unless you put in the batteries.

Dale

[martinw]

[QUOTE=dhellew2;635745

Lots of talk about electric cars... but nothing about where the power comes from to charge the batteries. As one thread said, 60 loss converting gas to electricity. My guess is that it is more efficient to burn gas in the car instead.

Dale[/QUOTE]

Dear Dale,

I think that somebody on CNCZone made the wise observation that buying an electric car and feeling good about it was not a whole lot different than teaching your dog to crap on the neighbours lawn, rather than your own.

Best wishes,

Martin

[fizzissist]

A couple of years ago I went from L.A. to Palm Springs in July or August (not by choice, and I'm still trying to forget the episode).

There's a veritable plethora of windmills down there, I mean, lots and lots of them. Big ones. In the valleys, on the hills. They look like mutant palm trees.

It was hot....really, really, hot. Record temps, 118deg temps. Everybody had the AC running, from San Diego to L.A., and beyond. But knowing that the demand was unusually high, I was puzzled to see about 20% of the windmills (by casual count) sitting idle. Not moving. Not being serviced. Just sitting there, motionless. And it was windy, as usual.

I guess the utilities don't make money unless they sell you something that they have to buy. Maybe that's the down side of free wind.

........meanwhile back at the Picken's farm...
Jul 08, 2009
Pickens calls off massive wind farm in Texas

http://www.icecap.us/