CNC off the grid.

[grinderdust]

I'll post this here first, but it may move over to benchtop mills.
If you are here to bash environmentalism, or want to cut to the chase, skip the why paragraph.

The why:
I may have found the piece of land I've been looking for! One problem, It will cost a fortune to get utilities. No telephone landline, no problem, I can get cell reception on one corner of the property and can probably route the signal to the homesite somehow from there. TV? who cares? Well water, septic system, road, shelter? $mall problem but I'll deal with that figuring I'll be able to sell my house eventually. What am I forgetting?.... hmmm...ELECTRICITY! Rats. There goes my dream. But wait! I really don't need that much. I am already accustomed to heating and making water hot with wood, drying my clothes in the wind or by the fire. Air conditioning is not needed in the shade of the forest. Lighting has some efficient options these days. Refrigeration is possible with propane or even heat exchanged from elsewhere. It would seem that my little workers in the garage present the biggest technological hurdle to living out my dream. I'm thinking maybe, just maybe I can find a way to run my cnc machines off the grid. I will definitely need to maximize efficiency in order to keep size of the power system down to something I can afford. This would be a twofold endeavor. 1: Running the spindle motor as efficiently as possible. 2: running the cnc components as efficiently as possible.

The what:
I have a stock Emco F1 cnc, a Rong fu round column with gecko's and servo's, and a South bend 9" lathe.The lathe is not cnc but is just as important to my shop. I wish to use as much D.C. electricity from batteries as I can to power these machines and have many questions.

The how:
I would like to know if it is possible to do away with the ac power supply in my gecko housing, and use dc current from batterys to power my drivers and motors. How difficult would it be to go about regulating this sort of thing? I am good with alot of things, but I need help with electricity when it gets into new territory. Please assume for now that the battery bank is limitless, but some fluctuation is normal,comes in 6 volt + or - increments, and the mill and servos are average performance for a round column. I'll open the geckobox up and "remember" the specific info soon. Would steppers be significantly better on power demand? I need basically the same info on the F1 but I'm considering a conversion to modern electronics. I still like this machine in it's stock form though and I might $ave a little for now by just ditching the power suppy and getting an lcd to work in place of ye oldeskool televiewscreen.

The 2HP monster that came attached to my rong fu is way overkill for this mill , especially for most of the work I do. I did some steel hogging on this mill back in it's manual days and I've succeded In breaking the stock vise (first day), causing the head to to slip on the column even with grade 8 pinch bolts, ridgid tapping, slipping belts, climb milling... That motor never even slowed down a bit. By the way don't do any of those things unless you live dangerously. Even then I hope you know what you're doing so you don't make $crap. Anyways I'll have a 2HP motor for sale soon.

What is the most efficient motor to run this machine? Variable speed would be nice. Battery supplied dc would be handy. Figure I'll 1 horsepower or a little less, and no rigid tapping. I can reduce the chipload a bit if the HP isn't enough. A modest increase in spindle rpm would be desirable(safe limit?). Eliminating one or all belts would improve many factors. Just for comparison,what type of motor is best overall for price vs. performance. I also need the same rundown for the lathe, which requires 1/2 hp, and the emco mill. I'm not sure of the power requirements for the F1 and I think it may have a dc spindle already. I know that it has brushes.

I'll leave the who, when and where to the imagination. It's better that way.
If you made it this far into my mad science novel you are truly a patient listener. If you have any Ideas that might help, you will also be regarded by me as a genius.

[ViperTX]

So, you want to live off the grid....hmmmmm....get yourself a generator.....and if the carbon footprint of the generator is offensive......hook up a treadmill to the generator.....maybe you can get Al and some friends over to run on the treadmill to generate electricity.

Hey, it's better then batteries.....seriously used generators are easy to find....and decently priced.....of course you could look at wind....but that's really iffyyyyyy....

[dynosor]

Why not retire your CNC machines completely?

If you make and sell sophisticted products that need energy to operate you are just encouraging others to pollute the air man.

[Geof]

Don't buy the property unless it has an all season creek running through it with an elevation change of at least 200 feet...then put in a Pelton wheel turbine driving and generator and you are being as green as can be.

[BigMike4u]

I would think that batteries and solar panels would be doable. Maybe a small generator for charging during cloudy days.

[Geof]

Have a look at this thread I started a couple of years ago. I had hoped to generate a discussion on the viability of doing something similar to what you are asking about but it did not go anywhere.

I think it would be perfectly feasible to do what you ask; i.e. run a machine directly from batteries, it would need some fairly sophisiticated electrical/electronic work but all of it more or less standard. My idea was a system to average the load on the electric supply, you want something that uses a different primary source; also mine is aimed at a much bigger machine.

The big problem with being entirely off the grid even when you are dealing with small horsepower motors is generating enough electrical power. Even the best solar panels only give you about 200 watts per square yard in full sunlight so if you assume 100% efficiency you need them storing energy for ten hours to run a 2 hp motor for about one hour. That assumption is silly and realistically you should expect about 50% overall so your ratio between sun hours and motor hours would be around 20 to 1.

A big problem, however, is that the sun does not shine all day or every day. Perhaps if you are located in Palm Springs you migh be able to expect 8 to 10 hours of sunshine per day but you mention 'shade of the forest' and locations where forests grow have a lot less sunshine than deserts. Where I live we get less than 2000 hours of sunlight per year so using my simple comparison here it could be possible to run the machine 100 hours per year; and this is mostly in the summer.

Alternatively you can consider wind power to fill in the gaps but this is intermittent and requires much more engineering than solar panels because the windmill needs to be able to survive strong winds but be sensitive enough to extract useable energy from light winds. On a large scale combined with conventional electricity generation wind power can provide a noticeable portion but as a sole source it is less practical than solar.

Do a bunch of reading on alternate energy systems; and read between the lines! A lot of the fuzzy brained greenies or people who have a vested interest in selling solar or wind systems will put in the 'if' very frequently and gloss over efficiency considerations.

[grinderdust]

Thanks for all your replies. Where to get the power is not likely to be a problem considering what is available these days. My plan is to use Honda's cogenerating furnace and a large battery bank. I will also be using as much wind and solar power as mother nature will give me. I will use the hydro method that Geof suggested if I find running water on the property. I will use a propane or biodeisel generator for times when there is no need for heat or hot water and the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. Or I could just cut back my usage on those days and enjoy the time to relax a bit. Machining is my hobby, I'm not doing it for a living anymore.

Dynosor, I will pretend for a second that your pessimistic point of view desrves a response. I am proud to say that most of my work involves saving energy not using it. I am working on a new type of CVT and a windmill design that should improve efficiency a great deal.

Back to the how, My laptop runs on batteries so it must be possible to do this. How do I regulate the batteries so that slight fluctuations in voltage don't cause problems with the drivers and such. Also I looked at the spindle motor on my F1 last night and here are the specs. 95VDC .44KW 5.8A
Seems like I could just ditch the transformer and patch in 95vdc where the speed control regulates the power to the motor. I hope this is how it works.
Anyone that knows anything about this, please be a hero and lend me a hand.

[ViperTX]

Well it could be the way it works....best to hook up an oscilloscope and see if it is pure DC.

[xyzdonna]

Originally Posted by grinderdust I'll post this here first, but it may move over to benchtop mills. If you are here to bash environmentalism, or want to cut to the chase, skip the why paragraph. The why: I may have found the piece of land I've been looking for! One problem, It will cost a fortune to get utilities. No telephone landline, no problem, I can get cell reception on one corner of the property and can probably route the signal to the homesite somehow from there. TV? who cares? Well water, septic system, road, shelter? problem but I'll deal with that figuring I'll be able to sell my house eventually. What am I forgetting?.... hmmm...ELECTRICITY! Rats. There goes my dream. But wait! I really don't need that much. I am already accustomed to heating and making water hot with wood, drying my clothes in the wind or by the fire. Air conditioning is not needed in the shade of the forest. Lighting has some efficient options these days. Refrigeration is possible with propane or even heat exchanged from elsewhere. It would seem that my little workers in the garage present the biggest technological hurdle to living out my dream. I'm thinking maybe, just maybe I can find a way to run my cnc machines off the grid. I will definitely need to maximize efficiency in order to keep size of the power system down to something I can afford. This would be a twofold endeavor. 1: Running the spindle motor as efficiently as possible. 2: running the cnc components as efficiently as possible. The what: I have a stock Emco F1 cnc, a Rong fu round column with gecko's and servo's, and a South bend 9" lathe.The lathe is not cnc but is just as important to my shop. I wish to use as much D.C. electricity from batteries as I can to power these machines and have many questions. The how: I would like to know if it is possible to do away with the ac power supply in my gecko housing, and use dc current from batterys to power my drivers and motors. How difficult would it be to go about regulating this sort of thing? I am good with alot of things, but I need help with electricity when it gets into new territory. Please assume for now that the battery bank is limitless, but some fluctuation is normal,comes in 6 volt + or - increments, and the mill and servos are average performance for a round column. I'll open the geckobox up and "remember" the specific info soon. Would steppers be significantly better on power demand? I need basically the same info on the F1 but I'm considering a conversion to modern electronics. I still like this machine in it's stock form though and I might a little for now by just ditching the power suppy and getting an lcd to work in place of ye oldeskool televiewscreen. The 2HP monster that came attached to my rong fu is way overkill for this mill , especially for most of the work I do. I did some steel hogging on this mill back in it's manual days and I've succeded In breaking the stock vise (first day), causing the head to to slip on the column even with grade 8 pinch bolts, ridgid tapping, slipping belts, climb milling... That motor never even slowed down a bit. By the way don't do any of those things unless you live dangerously. Even then I hope you know what you're doing so you don't make . Anyways I'll have a 2HP motor for sale soon. What is the most efficient motor to run this machine? Variable speed would be nice. Battery supplied dc would be handy. Figure I'll 1 horsepower or a little less, and no rigid tapping. I can reduce the chipload a bit if the HP isn't enough. A modest increase in spindle rpm would be desirable(safe limit?). Eliminating one or all belts would improve many factors. Just for comparison,what type of motor is best overall for price vs. performance. I also need the same rundown for the lathe, which requires 1/2 hp, and the emco mill. I'm not sure of the power requirements for the F1 and I think it may have a dc spindle already. I know that it has brushes. I'll leave the who, when and where to the imagination. It's better that way. If you made it this far into my mad science novel you are truly a patient listener. If you have any Ideas that might help, you will also be regarded by me as a genius.

Hi grinderdust,
There is a type of motor available called a universal that runs on AC & DC. That way you could use either your battery bank or a portable generator. Check out this handy motor guide. http://www.groschopp.com/pdfs/Grosch...tion_Guide.pdf
They have a 7/8 HP one that might be suitable. You should be able to vary the speed of the motor with a commercial drive unit designed for industrial applications.
xyzdonna

[307startup]

Originally Posted by grinderdust Thanks for all your replies. Where to get the power is not likely to be a problem considering what is available these days. My plan is to use Honda's cogenerating furnace and a large battery bank. I will also be using as much wind and solar power as mother nature will give me. I will use the hydro method that Geof suggested if I find running water on the property. I will use a propane or biodeisel generator for times when there is no need for heat or hot water and the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. Or I could just cut back my usage on those days and enjoy the time to relax a bit. Machining is my hobby, I'm not doing it for a living anymore. Dynosor, I will pretend for a second that your pessimistic point of view desrves a response. I am proud to say that most of my work involves saving energy not using it. I am working on a new type of CVT and a windmill design that should improve efficiency a great deal. Back to the how, My laptop runs on batteries so it must be possible to do this. How do I regulate the batteries so that slight fluctuations in voltage don't cause problems with the drivers and such. Also I looked at the spindle motor on my F1 last night and here are the specs. 95VDC .44KW 5.8A Seems like I could just ditch the transformer and patch in 95vdc where the speed control regulates the power to the motor. I hope this is how it works. Anyone that knows anything about this, please be a hero and lend me a hand.

Grinderdust...have you seen the latest copy of Pop Sci or Pop Mech? There is a feature in there on a rolling ball CVT made for a gearless bicycle, that is reported to be stout enough to be designed for use behind automotive projects...
anyways...
with a CVT like that, and variable pitch props on the generator, as well as some creative software that will allow the turbine to turn askew from the wind during gusts & excessively high speeds, you would have an awesome source of auxiliary power...
around here we average 300 days a year of windspeeds over 30 mph...course we are on the north side of a mountain range, in the bottom of a river valley, east of the Great Divide and west of flat land....