Destroy the Economy, Destroy the World.

[AMCTony]

I think that everyone can agree that any new energy source usually requires huge PRIVATE investment and years to develop. If you do not believe this then that is just tough crap because history speaks for it self. My question is how are we supposed to develop new technology to take us into a cleaner and brighter future if government policy does nothing but destroy the economy effectively reducing the amount of money that companies have to invest in R & D and new tech. Their answer is usually that they will fund research to "fix" the problem. Tell me one government funded department, group, whatever that would fix the problem. Once the problem is fixed then no further funding is required as well as the department that fixed the problem and everyone is no longer needed, read out of a job. In other words, no one with a cushy job is going to cut their own head off. Anyone here wonder why the state can never seem to fix the roads once so it will last and do it right the first time? Those people are not that stupid.

[GdeColigny]

Sorry to break it for you, but current private companies in the energy business don't invest anything in R&D as they are just milking the system to make their shareholder fatter by the day.

BTW development of nuclear energy was entirely made with public funding.

[BobF]

Nuclear Energy.
Could it have been due to the fact the only entity with nuclear information was the military?
Anyone remember the Manhattan project.
In September of 1942 General Leslie Groves was put in charge of construction. In August of 1945 the atomic bombs were dropped in Japan. In less than 3 years General Groves had constructed Oak Ridge Tennessee, Hanford Washington, and Los Alamos in New Mexico, and the scientists had worked out the specifics of a weapon, and the rest of the workers had produced enough Plutonium and enriched Uranium to make the bombs, and 1 was tested.
No matter your views of nuclear technology, the sheer magnitude of this and the accomplishment of doing it all in less than 3 years is impressive.

[martinw]

Originally Posted by GdeColigny Sorry to break it for you, but current private companies in the energy business don't invest anything in R&D as they are just milking the system to make their shareholder fatter by the day. BTW development of nuclear energy was entirely made with public funding.

Dear GdeColigny,

Excellent point.

Big business had no great hand in the promotion of nuclear power for electricity generation. This is back in the Fifties.

Politicians asked scientists if nuclear power might be a "runner"
The scientists gave a truthful answer. OK..OK, that was back in the old days when politicians knew some technical stuff, and were not mere law graduates.

It seems to work pretty well in France BTW.

Best wishes

Martin

[GdeColigny]

Originally Posted by BobF Nuclear Energy. Could it have been due to the fact the only entity with nuclear information was the military?

Who cares...


I'm French... we just got nukes to go on a p1ss1ng contest against the USA. It was a time were Communist were still politically strong in France and our point of view on the cold war was "better being communist than dead". Meanwhile for electricity we were serious from the start. and last time I checked more than 80% of our production is nuclear, powerplant are new and well maintained by public funds, old one are being retired while new one are build and we also constantly do research and dev on supergenerator (superphoenix... not exactly a success, but doing research don't mean that you "find" all the time, that is why the private sector don't invest in these kind of fields) and won a bid last year against the japanese for research on new fusion technology (ITER).

In the 90' there was even a commercial on TV showing a guy with a drilling machine... His neighbourg ask him why he's so noisy. the bloke answer "sorry i'm using my electric drilling machine"... The neighbourg answer "you mean your nuclear drilling machine" with a huge smile on his face and goes on to explain the benefit of responsible deployment of nuclear powerplants. (It was mostly to reassure against the risks of a French Tchernobyl)

[AMCTony]

Just keep in mind that now is a time when alternative energy is something that consumers want and are willing to spend a bit more on it. Turning the economy on its head will do nothing but send these people to the cheapest form of energy avaliable. Ever wonder why someone would spend the amount that they do for a hybrid car with no size or power? And has the investments in these cars not helped PRIVATE companies to fund development on better Hybrid cars and ones that use no fossil fuel at all? And what has the US or any other government done to facilitate this other than more restrictions on business. These things have to start small and cannot be a massive over night ordeal. Solar, Wind, Oil, Coal, and Nuclear sources took decades if not centuries to develop into reliable and viable sources. If public sources are so good then where is the Soviet Union? They had public funded everything. Their Nuclear power was REAL SAFE! Their aircraft scream reliability. O, I forgot, The Soviets colapsed under their own weight and buerocratic BS. Yes big business has its motive as well as those in washington that are bought and paid for by them. This also goes for those in washington that are bought and paid for by international socialist with their own agendas. As far as nuclear goes, enough mistakes have been made with it that it should be safe by now. We definitely know what not to do. And yes, when the govenment has to get somthing done now or die they always seem to put the project under private management. I have no problem looking for new energy but telling our children that they are all going to drown under rising oceans with no reliable science is where I draw the line. No one speaks of the glaicers that are expanding or getting thicker. Yes the Antartic penisula is melting. The rest of the continent is getting thicker with ice. This goes for Greenland as well. Yes Earth has warmed half of a degree since the mid 70's. So has Mars. Must be caused by the Viking lander and all of its polutants. Has anyone seen China at all? Are they not the biggest producer of CO2 in the world? Why is this global warming crap aimed at America? Might this just be a "we cant compete with the capitalist head to head so we need to bring the down any way we can."

BTW, It is better to be DEAD than communist. living as a slave to the state is not living.

[AMCTony]

(superphoenix... not exactly a success, but doing research don't mean that you "find" all the time, that is why the private sector don't invest in these kind of fields)

The Private sector reguarly invests in these kinds of things and they are usually a success. They have a much much higher rate of success because it is their money, they are more careful and informed before spending it and they dont toss it in the crapper like governments do. Think that I am still full of it then look at the Space Shuttle versus Scaled Composites Space Ship One. Budgets of Billions meets Budgets of Millions and remind me who it is crashing all the time?

Who cares...

And GdeColigny, I care as well as anyone else that wants to make a realistic argument. it was private companies and people that are responsible for the technology that now keeps the lights on in France and the Communist out of your house. At the time the US Government was smart enough to know when to get out of the way and put the right people in charge. I fear that time in now lost to the past.

[GdeColigny]

I hate to use ad hominem attacks.

But:

This also goes for those in washington that are bought and paid for by international socialist with their own agendas.

You are a gearbox

living as a slave to the state is not living.

Who can't seem to look throught his own window.

Budgets of Billions meets Budgets of Millions and remind me who it is crashing all the time?

And don't fear misrepresentation of anything to try to look smart. Because if you think that current space projects do not reuse knowledge and technology from Nasa you are a little off... (hell I even have microwave dishes derived from these technologies... bought at the regular supermarket...)

So, now I'm out of this crap. I'v lost enought time with 911 conspirationist, alien abuctees, haarp lovers, earthquake and tsunamy weapons believers.

it was private companies and people that are responsible for the technology that now keeps the lights on in France and the Communist out of your house

.
No... really not... but since you're not the kind of guy to be stopped by little things like reality or facts it doesn't really matter... And i'm also definatly sure that you can't put my country on the map, you won't believe that we don't learn accordion in schools or never wear pantomime clothes.

[AMCTony]

No... really not... but since you're not the kind of guy to be stopped by little things like reality or facts it doesn't really matter... And i'm also definatly sure that you can't put my country on the map, you won't believe that we don't learn accordion in schools or never wear pantomime clothes.

I will give you one thing. US Public Funded Military is the reason you do not have to wear a swastika and germany does not have a western coast.

[GdeColigny]

Dude... US Army did not win WWII alone... The Soviets were also doing a big part (remember the race for Berlin ?).

And remember Lafayette (cue the "aw not this sh1t again" pict). If it wasn't for the French, Americans would be obliged to speak english and obey to the Queen...

The cold war was an awfull scam from the militaro-industrial complexe to make money. Now that it's over, they are trying to make terurrists the new big deal... I hope it won't fly... But forget about your "communists eat babeeze" moto, it's no longer the one they try to hype. Now it's "Brown skinned dude hiding sumwhere in a cave in a country without indoor plumbing will take over ze wurld if we don't blow everything, burn the constitution, monitor the sh1t out of every moving animal or human and give all the muney to Halliburton"

God... i'm here for the CNC's, not this....

[pminmo]

Originally Posted by AMCTony Anyone here wonder why the state can never seem to fix the roads once so it will last and do it right the first time? Those people are not that stupid.

So many people keep wanting to rely on government to fix something, when the government is the best at breaking things....

[Wade]

Who needs new energy sources. We have a 100 years worth of coal. We just need to make sure we don't loose the right to use it. And, there's always nuclear power. The US will be fine.

What's with all the French versus US crap? You helped us, we helped you. We both hesitated before getting involved. There's lots of decisions being made in this country (US) that very few people really like anymore. As far as I'm concerned, if Bush doesn't produce a certain bearded head on a platter, he's failed. Iraq seems to need a dictator to keep from going super critical. And, even the French hate Iran (at least that's what our news suggests).

Back on subject, how much do think parents, with starving kids, care about the environment? Kill the economy, kill the environment. There are a lot of potential jobs to be had from this whole green power thing. If it's done right, we might actually create jobs, going green. But, what I see happening is a bunch of third world countries positioning themselves to litigate the developed countries for World Welfare. Third world crabs dragging down the rest of the developed crabs.