Follow the money

[dynosor]

It has been suggested that carbon credits and other policies related to global warming have more to do with the re-distribution of wealth than any potential effect on the climate.

From a different angle, huge investments are being made by people who either have not heard about the catastrophic sea level rise that is coming or clearly don't believe it. Check out the man-made islands being build off Dubai that are just above the current sea level:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dubai+world+islands

It is ironic that these massive projects are drawing foreign investment to yield tourist dollars for after the oil revenue has run out.

Are there that many rich fools, or is this simply evidence that global warming is indeed a scam intended to part you from your money?

[handlewanker]

dynosor, who cares? we'll all be dead when it's time to worry, so why worry about issues that really cloud the real issues?
Carbon credits, now there is a cloudy issue if there ever was one, there is more CO2 being put in the air by the normal effects of acid rain on the chalk deposits laid down millions of years ago.
Plants love C02, what have you got against plants?
Ian.

[dynosor]

Originally Posted by handlewanker ...why worry about issues that really cloud the real issues?

So, what are the real issues?

I am not worried about natural climate change, only about policy changes in the name of climate change.

[handlewanker]

Hi dynosor, clean water, clean air, clean food, just some of the real issues.
Taking anything for granted means you won't miss it when it's gone, you won't be around to miss it anyway.
If you haven't recognised that fact yet, welcome to the ranks of the ignorant human animal, with eyes tightly closed and fingers in their ears.

The overall problem is vested interests, once you can put these aside, the problems will be solved automatically.
You, like all the others prefer to allow somone else to do the dirty work, and expect the problems to dissapear without so much as lifting a finger.

In the latest issue of the RACV car magazine, top of page 8, in OZ, General Motors director for advanced technology, Christopher Boroni-Bird, stated that by 2010, just round the corner, they will not be making any more internal combustion engines at all, but investing in electric car technology via the fuel cell for their customers,
This will solve the problem of flagging car sales, bravo we need a few more cars on the roads.

This may well be, but untill we reduce the world's population and the insatiable desire for raw materials, nothing will change, oh and recycling is just a bandaid, paying lip service to the real issues, same as carbon credit trading, shifting the sh#t around with nowhere to go, like sweeping dirt under the carpet.

Now we want to go to Mars? Gawd blimey mr Earthman, you ain't half a one!
1% gain for 99% expenditure.
I hope we live long enough to see you stew in your own juice.
Ian.

[keitholivier]

I'm afraid that since I'm already working on engine technology for 2010 and beyond (2012 in some cases), I can assure you that the world is still a long way from fuel cells or all electric vehicles.

It is possible with todays technology to have functional electric vehicles, but there is no doubt that they lose a lot of utility compare to an even more available option, which is simply SMALLER vehicles (Civic, Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, VW Lupo/Fox, and a dozen other small vehicles readily available outside the USA).

There is simply NO reason for anyone to need a Hummer, Yukon, Navigator or any of the other big 4x4 vehicles to drop the kids off at school or pick up the groceries. For a while big oil and the big 3 car makers were incestuous bedfellows, both feeding off the insatiable EGO of the american public.

I think since 911 the reality of politics surrounding oil, the power that oil revenues put in the hands of those who have it and the growing realization that a second USA (China - at least in terms of energy consumption) is going to blow the bank on oil supplies in short order has seen the dramatic increase in the price of crude world wide.

Without considering the environmental impact of the development that is presently going on in china, in a situation where the US presently consumes the majority of the worlds oil reserves, clearly staying on track with present consumption is going to result in an eventual conflict with china. This may possibly be at least partially responsible for the US politically taking a harder look at that part of the energy equation that can be changed in a relatively short time - cars. Energy consumption on HVAC is at record levels in homes and office buildings too, but these capital intensive locations will take much longer to change than the vehicle fleets.

The impact of higher fuel prices on sales of bigger vehicles has been significant. Few people do not think of the cost of fuel when thinking about their choice of new vehicle the next time around. In 3 years time, one will have a much better picture of the direction public opinion is going. Unfortunately, as always, Detroit has procrastinated and tried to skirt around the need for smaller vehicles and the impact of this bad strategic planning is going to be seen more clearly in the future than ever before. I personally find it hard to believe that consumers will be buying Chinese made cars that are Chevy badged instead of Japanese. The koreans are not quite in the China league but their sales are climbing.

If you really love your chevy, ou might want to buy one sometime soon, because these american Icons may not make it too much longer.


[quote=handlewanker;332717]In the latest issue of the RACV car magazine, top of page 8, in OZ, General Motors director for advanced technology, Christopher Boroni-Bird, stated that by 2010, just round the corner, they will not be making any more internal combustion engines at all, but investing in electric car technology via the fuel cell for their customers,
This will solve the problem of flagging car sales, bravo we need a few more cars on the roads.

This may well be, but untill we reduce the world's population and the insatiable desire for raw materials, nothing will change, oh and recycling is just a bandaid, paying lip service to the real issues, same as carbon credit trading, shifting the sh#t around with nowhere to go, like sweeping dirt under the carpet./quote]

[RRRoamer]

It always amazes me when I see posts that just seem to believe that the free market doesn't work.

Neither GM, nor Ford, nor Chrysler, nor Toyota, nor BMW, nor Honda, nor ANY car manufacture gets to dictate what people buy! It's not all one company and they definitely do NOT have some kind of lock on it.

These companies build what they THINK people want to buy. When they get it right, they sell a lot of vehicles and make a lot of money on them. When they don't, they don't sell many cars and they lose money. If they do it poorly enough long enough, they either get bought out or they go out of business.

It really is that simple.

People where driving large, heavy, poor mpg vehicles because they WANTED to! Gas was dirt cheap so they could afford to fill up a 35 gallon tank and deal with only getting 12 mpg. When gas prices went up (supply and demand once more), some folks couldn't afford (or justify) that fill up, so people started either buying more fuel efficient vehicles or they changed the way the used their existing vehicle to decrease the amount of fuel they were using.

Right now, more fuel efficient vehicles make more sense than a lot of the alternatives (mass transit, hybrids, electric vehicles, bicycling, etc.) do for MOST people. If fuel prices keep going up, more and more people will change how they live to decrease the amount of fuel they need. But right now, things like hybrids, electrics, fuel cells, hydrogen fuel, etc are NOT economically sound purchases for most people.

Hybrids get better fuel economy, but they have this little issue with battery life. Anyone that has owned a power tool for any length of time knows what happens to batteries as they get older. Eventually, they have to be replaced and the old batteries disposed of. And have you seen the kind of chemicals that are in modern batteries??? Have you PRICED a battery pack for a hybrid car? You can buy a LOT of fuel for that much money.

The car companies will keep doing what they think is right to sell the most cars. Some times they will get it right, some times they will get it wrong. At some point, with the improvements in technology and a ongoing increase in fuel prices, I have no doubt that alternative vehicles will become not only competitive, but actually desirable. What that happens, the IC engine as we know it today will quickly fade away much as the horse and buggy did early last century.

[handlewanker]

Hi Keith, I drive a Mercedes "tank", 1980 280E, and as I'm a one passenger car driver, (me only) I reckon the whole world could point the finger at me and say "burn it, for gawds sake".

I use to drive a Morris Minor and later a Hillman Imp, some 30 years ago, so can say that given the choice I'd stick with the Merc, just a much more comfortable drive, hardly prestige nowadays, but still has the aura of when it was made.

Apart from fuel consumption, there are no comparisons like a big car drive.
The small cars today are tin boxes on wheels, and manufacturers would make them of plastic if they could get the legislation to allow it.

I personally don't care about the environmental impact the car has made on society.
I'd rather drive a car to destruction than work a horse to death.
As a member of the human race I want whatever I can get and to hell with the consequences.
Just because the natural resources are drying up doesn't mean I must give up my pleasure.
My solution to the drive the "kids to school" situation, make them walk, I used to back in the '50's, we never had a car then, only bikes, pedal types.

When the oil has gone we are going to use vegy oil or alcohol or something else that can be burned.
Long after the human race has ceased to exist there will still be an environment, not as we know it, but more to the liking of the then resident species, be it microbial organisms clinging to a volcanic rock or just some other life form we haven't had the chance to exploit or subdue.

I weep for the environmentalists driving around beating their gums about the pollution, when they ignore natural occurances and marvel at volcanoes spewing out poisonous fumes far more deadly than any man made muck.

Electric cars make sense if you value the environment you live in.
No wastage sitting at traffic lights, no poisonous fumes, no warm up wastage, hardly any moving parts and very condusive to making smaller cars to get better power to weight ratio.

This is of course if you haven't got money tied up in investments that are related to the present car industry of piston engines, gearboxes and oil related products such as synthetic rubber tyres to name a few.

In the end, as we don't live forever, we won't see the results of our indulgence and lip service payments to safe living.
We will go the way of all flesh and some of us are planning on coming back again.

As a matter of interest, are you saying that General Motors have got it all wrong,and the supply of oil is endless?
Ian.

[handlewanker]

Hallo all you concerned humans, one thing we all foget and that is we are ALL our own worst enemy!

When the fuel prices rise it makes the wage earners jumpy and the next wage rise for them is geared to getting more money to not only cover the inflation rate but to ensure that all you people with vested interests in the car industry will get more money to run your big cars.

Never in the entire history of human endeavour has the price of consumer commodities exceeded the ability of the average worker to pay for it.

If commodity prices did outstrip that infinately renewable resource called "income source", whether it be earned income or extended credit, then the brakes of poverty would automatically come on, and lack of sales would lead to more and more bankruptcy auctions untill the market stabilised and so we stagger on from one crisis to another.

Never underestimate the ability of the population to aquire what it wants by any means whatsoever.

If you go to the birth of the horseless buggy industry and look at the offerings available then as compared to now, it is apparent that no matter how the damm thing performs, as long as it gets you from A to B without walking then it'll sell.

The same can be said for any newly emerging technology, without boring you, have a look at the first commercial TV offerings, but they sold and made a lot of money for some, not the original inventor by the way.

The theme is follow the money, which broadly interpreted means, If you want something done, pay someone, but not yourself.
The moment the economy expands beyond the capacity for it's self regeneration, then the only resource left to balance the books is plastic, and that's where the economists foresight fails to penetrate, in other words the ability for some to beg borrow or steal their way to solvency, even for a short while.

It has been said that work is a poor return for needs, and needs are a poor return for desire, which translates to "some have it good and some have it better", but on the whole when you put your future in the hands of a chosen few, then the steering wheel of your urban dream boat is turning whether you want it or not.

I can only dream of the heights the electric car would have attained had it had 1% of the resources expended on it as it's piston engined rival.
Ian.

[dynosor]

Originally Posted by handlewanker I can only dream of the heights the electric car would have attained had it had 1% of the resources expended on it as it's piston engined rival. Ian.

You make it sound like the electric car has suffered under some sort of discrimination and now it is time to fix things by means of affirmative action. If something is worth having, capitalists will invest in it and the market will flock to it - no conspiracy here.

I also get the impression that you think electric cars are clean with respect to "greenhouse gasses". Unless all your power comes from sources such as nuclear reactors, the electric car simply pollutes elsewhere from the general area it is used in. Aren't most power stations coal fired? That is certainly true of the new ones sprouting up all over China.

Be careful of unintended consequences: The electric car may yet become the worst real polluter know to mankind.

[handlewanker]

Dynosor, by capitalists do you mean one of those money grubbing ex commie ba##stads that have finally seen the light and are now shovelling the loot in all directions to get a slice of the pie we've been eating all these years because we're not so bl##dy stupid with our ideology?

I don't see the Chinese turning their noses up at my dollars now, when I buy on the China Ebay websites, not a hair out of place on their heads when I buy their exported goods.
That is the kind of common sense I like to relate to, not some pontificating do gooders thinking they're going to make things right by cutting their noses off.

Incidently, I have a number of investments in the eastern bloc, and they're very considerate and courteous over there when you play the game and admit to fair play, not petty Western pseudo politics that just cloud the real meaning of cross border trade preferences.

I have a very great liking for electric cars, as you no doubt have observed, and the situation you pose of smoke belching chimneys from the dark Satanic mills that would be present when the oil runs out and the coal starts to increase in volume "aint never gonna happen".

Why? because it's the capitalists that have to pay the bl##dy miners to go down the pits to dig the stuff out, not at the present rate but in vastly increasing quantities, and as the coal mine owners are finding it more and more difficult to find any worthwhile seams of coal, I leave it to your imagination.

You could of course have a Nuclear power plant next door to you, that would certainly increase the property values. I hear land packages are going dirt cheap in the Chernobyl area now that facility has shut down.

In my very humble opinion, and for what it's worth, the world has bust the bank on human production, and as there is a glut of human raw material, wouldn't it be a sane idea to just harness this valuable resource, it is infinately sustainable you know, and get a bit back for all the resources squandered by it?

If we go back to square one and forget the oil, coal, atomic energy, space research and any other fancifull ideas that consume vast amounts of resources but leave little to advance the progress of all life forms, then you have a formular to progress into the 21st cent without repeating the mistakes of the last several thousand years.

It's only when the chips are down that the sleepers raise their heads and wonder what all the fuss is about.
Of all the most memorable endeavours by man, the most notable is the car.
It has allowed somone who lives in one place to travel miles or kilometers back and forth to a work place without any gain, but certain in the knowledge that they'd rather be somewhere else.

I was walking down the road the other day when I was passed by a motor cycle, so what? It was electric, doing about 30 Kmh, it went by like a puff of wind and as quiet as the grave.
I couldn't care less if it took a couple of kilos of dirty coal to make the electricity to run the thing, one thing is for sure, that is the way to go, the electricity can be produced in viable quantities by many other clean means, and sufficient for all our needs when we get rid of the excess population and concentrate on having a better standard of living.

I'm not advocating mass suicide or genocide or any other cide that comes to mind, just stop doing IT for a while and let the population level subside for a bit.
Meanwhile I'll have a look at the Tesla electric car and see how that is turning out. Might be able to get one second hand on Ebay soon.
Ian.

[Wade]

I'm confused: Here's what I think I know.

You like electric vehicles.
You hate Nuclear Power.
You don't care about pollution.

Is this about right?

Here in the states, coal is everywhere. The entire state of Montana is one big coal field.

The Tesla's batteries have to be replaced after 500 full recharges. The car costs $100,000 new. A replacement battery pack will be at least $20,000 USD. There are 7000 Li-Ion batteries in it, each a little bigger than a AA. They must be getting a heck of a bulk rate discount on batteries. Good luck finding your dream car.

Later.

[PoppaBear10]

The reason why this government and other governments have jumped on the GW band wagon, is it is a way for them to Tax YOU and Buizness. It is a perfect vehical for them, since No one can or will Prove or Disprove this BS therory. You will note that stuff that disproves this crap never gets any Media play. Look at the Greenland findings which show that the world used to be alot warmer than today, and the earth goes through natrally occuring warming and cooling cycles.

I wish BIG Buizness would get together and step on this stupid way for al gore who is worthless to start with, to make more money.

Scott