The Coming Climate Change

[alexccmeister]

Fear is good. Its part of who we are. Its human nature. Fear gets us out of trouble. Whats wrong with that. Before the Tsunami in Indonesia happened, animals of all sorts ran away from the beach towards higher ground and thats why they don't perish. People on the other hand, due to their curiosity, ran towards the beach to investigate. No fear and what happen?

Its a more dangerous world to have this concept of no fear. Look at the extremist who blow themselves up because they say "I am not fearful of death".

[dynosor]

Originally Posted by alexccmeister See, thats the problem with the critics, they always think about themselves. Can't you spare some thoughts for others and offer some sort of solution than to fight every environmentalists and believers. And all I hear from the critics are "you are not going to take away my this and that". What is it that you are so afraid of? What exactly are they taking away from you? BTW, Brunei still has clean air but it won't be for long if the number of cars and industries keep springing up cos we don't have any other better technologies that will reduce the pollutions. And where do you suggest I move to? Earth is my home as much as it is yours. So please don't s4it in your back yard is all i can say.

Alex, I am all for the development of improved technologies - I am in that business myself. However, before I spend YOUR money to solve a problem I consider to be important enough to solve, I think you have the right to all least know what the problem is and what my proposed solution will be.

I don’t expect you to give me a blank check up front because I know best what needs doing. My problem is that the politicians pushing GW want us to trust them to do whatever they want without full disclosure, especially any kind of cost benefit analysis.

Before solving a problem you first have to define it properly. I have a problem with people who use "pollution" and CO2 interchangeably. I am all for you implementing or developing efficient & effective strategies at preserving your clean air. If I am contributing to your lack of clean air, then I need to be involved in bringing your solution. That is, if you truly face a pollution problem. If the problem is defined as too much CO2, then I will fight you all the way.

I don't want to force you to leave home. My statement about you moving is an effort to establish if you truly have an air pollution problem - an oil refinery would qualify. Then the question is if the refinery was operating when you moved there, or if was built after you arrived...

In other words, how much control do you have over the air quality you breath by the choices you make and have made? Are you truly soliciting help to solve a real problem facing mankind or is it local to your neighborhood, or Brunei. If it is local to Brunei, I am willing to help if I can. Just don't expect a blank check.

[dynosor]

Originally Posted by alexccmeister Fear is good. Its part of who we are. Its human nature. Fear gets us out of trouble. Whats wrong with that. Before the Tsunami in Indonesia happened, animals of all sorts ran away from the beach towards higher ground and thats why they don't perish.

Fear is a natural mechanism that drives humans and animals to run from the lion and survive. It is a good mechanism, but not intended to operate for more than a few minutes at a time.

It is not fear that is bad, it is those that instill lifelong fear in their fellow men so that they may have their way unopposed.

[xyzdonna]

Originally Posted by jhowelb Neither does it prove the possibility of man caused warming, you yourself state that we don't know for sure. One thing we DO know for sure is that there are human sharks out there looking to clip the gullible with any brand of snake oil available. I believe that they ALL are trying for grant money to fund "research"! I don't own a "Hummer" but rest assured I feel NO guilt going down the highway in my 36" motor coach. It's mine, I bought it with MY money as the fuel it comsumes as well. NO APOLOGY extended to anyone! We will also argue over "the best minds" as long as you have lunatics like Algore proffering his brand of bilge water. None of you can tell me what the weather will be next month let alone next century. Take for example the predictions of many and massive hurricanes in the wake of Katrina. What an amazing failure! ZERO land falls and only a few real storms. Again, the REAL threat of Islamic terror and even the still more realistic (than warming) possibility of being struck by a giant comet go unattended! Go back to the "causes bin" and pick a more likely winner to scare us with because we ain't buying this one!!

jhowelb
We do know that we ourselves are funding Islamic terrorism with our petro dollars. Going green with synthetic fuels would have the duel purpose of reducing this cash flow to the middle east and possibly benefiting the environment as well. Of course we are going to be 8 years behind the curve until we can get the current moron in chief out of office and put someone in who actually has a viable energy policy. This idiot is proposing ethanol which currently takes about as much energy to produce as it creates. Biodiesel would be a better choice but ultimately hydrogen is going to be the answer.
As to nuclear energy I think it is viable. Although I'm a liberal, (yes I like Al Gore he's from my state) I think it can be safely implemented. The Europeans do it by settling on a standard design that has all the kinks worked out and then building them all alike. This avoids much of the laborious regulatory process of having some engineer revue each element of the design. I also have a friend who's a nuclear engineer that oversaw the deconstruction of Three Mile Island after that mishap. After many conversations with him I'm sure it can be done right, it just takes a commitment.
We also know that a lot of ice is melting in the world. The question becomes why. No doubt there are many reasons with a good possibility that some are man made. We don't know for sure but we do know that some (but not all) with a vested interest take a position one way or the other. This is the antithesis of the scientific method. We need to look at the evidence dispassionately. I think this will happen, especially if the situation worsens.
As to your comet concerns this should be addressed as well. But it will probably have to wait until we can get religion out of politics. The Christian conservatives would probably think this is just what god had planned.
Donna

[alexccmeister]

Originally Posted by xyzdonna jhowelb We do know that we ourselves are funding Islamic terrorism with our petro dollars. Going green with synthetic fuels would have the duel purpose of reducing this cash flow to the middle east and possibly benefiting the environment as well. Of course we are going to be 8 years behind the curve until we can get the current moron in chief out of office and put someone in who actually has a viable energy policy. This idiot is proposing ethanol which currently takes about as much energy to produce as it creates. Biodiesel would be a better choice but ultimately hydrogen is going to be the answer. As to nuclear energy I think it is viable. Although I'm a liberal, (yes I like Al Gore he's from my state) I think it can be safely implemented. The Europeans do it by settling on a standard design that has all the kinks worked out and then building them all alike. This avoids much of the laborious regulatory process of having some engineer revue each element of the design. I also have a friend who's a nuclear engineer that oversaw the deconstruction of Three Mile Island after that mishap. After many conversations with him I'm sure it can be done right, it just takes a commitment. We also know that a lot of ice is melting in the world. The question becomes why. No doubt there are many reasons with a good possibility that some are man made. We don't know for sure but we do know that some (but not all) with a vested interest take a position one way or the other. This is the antithesis of the scientific method. We need to look at the evidence dispassionately. I think this will happen, especially if the situation worsens. As to your comet concerns this should be addressed as well. But it will probably have to wait until we can get religion out of politics. The Christian conservatives would probably think this is just what god had planned. Donna

+1

[alexccmeister]

Originally Posted by dynosor Alex, I am all for the development of improved technologies - I am in that business myself. However, before I spend YOUR money to solve a problem I consider to be important enough to solve, I think you have the right to all least know what the problem is and what my proposed solution will be. I don’t expect you to give me a blank check up front because I know best what needs doing. My problem is that the politicians pushing GW want us to trust them to do whatever they want without full disclosure, especially any kind of cost benefit analysis. Before solving a problem you first have to define it properly. I have a problem with people who use "pollution" and CO2 interchangeably. I am all for you implementing or developing efficient & effective strategies at preserving your clean air. If I am contributing to your lack of clean air, then I need to be involved in bringing your solution. That is, if you truly face a pollution problem. If the problem is defined as too much CO2, then I will fight you all the way. I don't want to force you to leave home. My statement about you moving is an effort to establish if you truly have an air pollution problem - an oil refinery would qualify. Then the question is if the refinery was operating when you moved there, or if was built after you arrived... In other words, how much control do you have over the air quality you breath by the choices you make and have made? Are you truly soliciting help to solve a real problem facing mankind or is it local to your neighborhood, or Brunei. If it is local to Brunei, I am willing to help if I can. Just don't expect a blank check.

Dynosor,

I really don't have a problem with current technologies such as oil refineries and such as long as we do our part (or some scientists and researchers I should say) in finding new ways to improve on what we have currently. As what XYZdonna said, looking towards getting hydrogen as the fuel source would be the best and this does not mean the by-product of oil which hydrogen is currently obtained from but the production of this clean fuel from some means. I will leave the task to some experts that I am sure are working hard as we speak to develop it. And if they get rich in the process, so be it, they deserve it. Whether the money comes from you or the general public to do so I don't know. But I am sure there are groups of experts probably doing this via grants from NGOs rather than the government.

But I can understand your situation, with politician you can't be so sure where your money will end up. And its probably a good thing that other governments are involved as well to tackle this issue.

[jhowelb]

xyzdonna ,

When you resort to personal attacks (....current moron in chief ....) you lose all credibility even if personal attacks are straight from the left side play book. There has never been a moron capable of piloting a jet aircraft. (Can you do it?)

"Going green with synthetic fuels........"

These fuels are MORE caustic to the environment than oil and have the added effect of driving the cost of corn and grain sky high. (All those Latin types can't afford their tortillas, tamales, enchiladas etc)

"....hydrogen is going to be the answer."

Yes, the by product there is water, Check it out, water vapor is the #1 green house gas!

"The Europeans do it by settling on a standard design that has all the kinks worked out and then building them all alike."

this is called group think and it discourages innovation, which is the greatest detriment to progress brought on by socialism as seen in the USSR.

"But it will probably have to wait until we can get religion out of politics. The Christian conservatives would probably think this is just what god had planned."

Well there ya go! THERE is your problem! THIS has become your religion because you have no faith in God (CAPITOL G) nor man and want to force your faith upon the rest of us.

Religion is spine of politics, politics is war continued by other means and war is the perpetual state of mankind. Try to separate then and they fold in upon you!

Nice try but you still haven't shown me any reason to open my pocket book to your cause especially at the expense of our national economy. Sell it first in China and India!!

[xyzdonna]

Originally Posted by Mariss Freimanis Fear, fear, fear, fear. Comets now, Global Warming before. Haven't you ever wondered what life would be like without fear? What it would be like if you were to put all your burdens down? If you could disconnect from all that? Imagine a life without fear. Imagine a life where you wake up every morning and you truly feel refreshed. Imagine a day from morning until evening when you'd say, "this was the happiest day of my life". Then you do it again after endless day again. If you can't or you say you would like to, then something isn't right. It is the way life was meant to be enjoyed. It is the way I live my life. I don't think it's anything special. Mariss

Mariss,
What a beautiful philosophy! I'm in awe of you both for your outlook on life and your technical expertise. I own 9 of your drives in current and planned machines and they have proved flawless.
I'm certainly not a fear monger, but I do think caution is prudent. Until we know for sure what is happening it would be best to proceed to develop some solutions since many of the solutions are things we should be doing anyway. As I said previously, we're going to be 8 years behind the curve and I'm sure a lot more misdirections until we get a change of administration.
Nobody talks much about the root cause of the problems; over population. I suppose it's not politically correct. I think only the Chinese have taken any substantive steps in this direction. If global warming is real, it may well solve the problem of overpopulation. If it isn't, then we'll still have a planet with too many people on it and that will bring plenty of other problems. We've definitely got to develop a strategy that doesn't involve junk science or quixotic solutions. This is going to require intelligent & visionary leadership. Think Hillery!
Donna

BTW; I don't think you're quite on the mark when you say the women's movement has culminated. Legislatively perhaps but not in attitude of the populacewise.

[jhowelb]

"..................since many of the solutions are things we should be doing anyway."

Should be doing, according to WHO? And just who can show me that these things ARE solutions and not just MORE PROBLEMS?

[jhowelb]

Overpopulation? Chinese? Oh yes, THEY are the ones who allow the unauthorized babies to starve to death!

[xyzdonna]

Originally Posted by jhowelb xyzdonna , When you resort to personal attacks (....current moron in chief ....) you lose all credibility even if personal attacks are straight from the left side play book. There has never been a moron capable of piloting a jet aircraft. (Can you do it?) I don't think so, personal attacks against political leaders are a time honored tradition in our country, it's what makes politics interesting. Forgive my being a bit facetious, of course he's not really a moron, it's just his policies that are idiotic. No I can't fly a jet, but I got my student pilots' license once and soloed a small plane, does that count? Well actually I might, I asked a jet pilot that question once. As a small plane pilot would I be able to get a jet down if there were an emergency and I had to do it? He said I probably could if the weather were good and there were no other problems other than the incapacitation of the pilot and copilot. Never had to do it though. "Going green with synthetic fuels........" These fuels are MORE caustic to the environment than oil and have the added effect of driving the cost of corn and grain sky high. (All those Latin types can't afford their tortillas, tamales, enchiladas etc) I dispute that they are more caustic to the environment, everything I've read says they are more benign, and besides we're running out of oil, "....hydrogen is going to be the answer." Yes, the by product there is water, Check it out, water vapor is the #1 green house gas! Water vapor is a lot better than CO or CO2. It'll just join up with other water vapor, form clouds, block out the sun, cool the earth and make rain. "The Europeans do it by settling on a standard design that has all the kinks worked out and then building them all alike." this is called group think and it discourages innovation, which is the greatest detriment to progress brought on by socialism as seen in the USSR. At the present state of development I think they could come up with a nuclear plant design that would be about 95% optimum. The cost of further development would yield much diminished returns. The cost of designing all new plants every time with the regulatory and safety issues is one of the reasons it's so expensive. "But it will probably have to wait until we can get religion out of politics. The Christian conservatives would probably think this is just what god had planned." Well there ya go! THERE is your problem! THIS has become your religion because you have no faith in God (CAPITOL G) nor man and want to force your faith upon the rest of us. Religion is spine of politics, politics is war continued by other means and war is the perpetual state of mankind. Try to separate then and they fold in upon you! Those of us who are atheists are perfectly capable of gentility. Religion implies faith, and faith implies belief without proof. This is the diametric opposite of the scientific method and is where all the trouble comes in. Believing in something because you want it to be true. "I don't like global warming so I'll just say it isn't true." Hey, that was easy, now let's try evolution, "I don't believe in that either because that's not the way god, err, excuse me God said it was done in the bible." Pretty soon you're creating policies based on what feels good. "God wouldn't like stem cell research so we can't have that either." Never mind that the tissue was going to be thrown away anyway. People are dying because of the imbecilic policies of this administration and conservatives in general. Nice try but you still haven't shown me any reason to open my pocket book to your cause especially at the expense of our national economy. Sell it first in China and India!!

Now imagine what the world would be likeif Al Gore hadn't had the election stolen from him by the supremes. He would have encouraged conservation. What did this president do, why the Hummer exemption, buy the big gas guzzler, use all the fuel you want, I'll go over and bump off Sadam and steal all his oil. No, we wouldn't be embroiled in this Iraq debacle, we could have done the same thing with conservation. The insane policies of the current administration will soon have added about a trillion dollars to the national debt. About $6,000 for every man woman and child in the country. A trillion here and a trillion there, pretty soon your talking real money, to update the Everett Dirksen quote. The middle class would certainly be better off. This presidents war on the middle class has made all of us poorer. More and more of the tax burden is being loaded off of the rich on to the middle class. Even some of the very rich are scratching their heads over the illogic of it. Warren Buffets recent remarks that his secretary pays more in taxes as a percentage of her income than he does comes to mind. No my friend, we are a lot worse off because of the imbecilic policies of this administration. Plus, in the midst of all our other problems, he's about to get the cold war cranked back up! Did I say he wasn't a moron? Maybe I was wrong.
Donna
.

[xyzdonna]

I'm sorry, my previous post made it confusing as to who said what, let me post again. I wasn't familiar with how it worked. Ignore my previous post and read this instead, I've made it clearer as to who said what. jhowelb conveniently put quotes in where he was quoting me.
Donna

jhowelb:When you resort to personal attacks (....current moron in chief ....) you lose all credibility even if personal attacks are straight from the left side play book. There has never been a moron capable of piloting a jet aircraft. (Can you do it?)
Donna:I don't think so, personal attacks against political leaders are a time honored tradition in our country, it's what makes politics interesting. Forgive my being a bit facetious, of course he's not really a moron, it's just his policies that are idiotic. No I can't fly a jet, but I got my student pilots' license once and soloed a small plane, does that count? Well actually I might, I asked a jet pilot that question once. As a small plane pilot would I be able to get a jet down if there were an emergency and I had to do it? He said I probably could if the weather were good and there were no other problems other than the incapacitation of the pilot and copilot. Never had to do it though.

jhowelb:"Going green with synthetic fuels........"

These fuels are MORE caustic to the environment than oil and have the added effect of driving the cost of corn and grain sky high. (All those Latin types can't afford their tortillas, tamales, enchiladas etc)

Donna:I dispute that they are more caustic to the environment, everything I've read says they are more benign, and besides we're running out of oil.

jhowelb:"....hydrogen is going to be the answer."

Yes, the by product there is water, Check it out, water vapor is the #1 green house gas!

Donna:Water vapor is a lot better than CO or CO2. It'll just join up with other water vapor, form clouds, block out the sun, cool the earth and make rain.

jhowelb:"The Europeans do it by settling on a standard design that has all the kinks worked out and then building them all alike."

this is called group think and it discourages innovation, which is the greatest detriment to progress brought on by socialism as seen in the USSR.

Donna:At the present state of development I think they could come up with a nuclear plant design that would be about 95% optimum. The cost of further development would yield much diminished returns. The cost of designing all new plants every time with the regulatory and safety issues is one of the reasons it's so expensive.

jhowelb:"But it will probably have to wait until we can get religion out of politics. The Christian conservatives would probably think this is just what god had planned."

Well there ya go! THERE is your problem! THIS has become your religion because you have no faith in God (CAPITOL G) nor man and want to force your faith upon the rest of us.

Religion is spine of politics, politics is war continued by other means and war is the perpetual state of mankind. Try to separate then and they fold in upon you!

Donna:Those of us who are atheists are perfectly capable of gentility. Religion implies faith, and faith implies belief without proof. This is the diametric opposite of the scientific method and is where all the trouble comes in. Believing in something because you want it to be true. "I don't like global warming so I'll just say it isn't true." Hey, that was easy, now let's try evolution, "I don't believe in that either because that's not the way god, err, excuse me God said it was done in the bible." Pretty soon you're creating policies based on what feels good. "God wouldn't like stem cell research so we can't have that either." Never mind that the tissue was going to be thrown away anyway. People are dying because of the imbecilic policies of this administration and conservatives in general.

jhowelb:Nice try but you still haven't shown me any reason to open my pocket book to your cause especially at the expense of our national economy. Sell it first in China and India!!

Donna:Now imagine what the world would be like if Al Gore hadn't had the election stolen from him by the supremes. He would have encouraged conservation. What did this president do, why the Hummer exemption, buy the big gas guzzler, use all the fuel you want, I'll go over and bump off Sadam and steal all his oil. No, we wouldn't be embroiled in this Iraq debacle, we could have done the same thing with conservation. The insane policies of the current administration will soon have added about a trillion dollars to the national debt. About $6,000 for every man woman and child in the country. A trillion here and a trillion there, pretty soon your talking real money, to update the Everett Dirksen quote. The middle class would certainly be better off. This presidents war on the middle class has made all of us poorer. More and more of the tax burden is being loaded off of the rich on to the middle class. Even some of the very rich are scratching their heads over the illogic of it. Warren Buffets recent remarks that his secretary pays more in taxes as a percentage of her income than he does comes to mind. No my friend, we are a lot worse off because of the imbecilic policies of this administration. Plus, in the midst of all our other problems, he's about to get the cold war cranked back up! Did I say he wasn't a moron? Maybe I was wrong.
Donna