The Coming Climate Change

[Mariss Freimanis]

Yes, I run my business in a responsible way. I design the best product I know how, we manufacture right here in the USA and sell them at a price the Chinese find acceptable, we ship on time and we support our product after you buy it. I am responsible to make sure our lowest paid employee makes $35 an hour so they can raise a family without mom having to earn an income. It makes a difference to me if I have done my best or not for what I do and to those that work for me.

Is that what you meant by "responsible" and "make a difference"?

Mariss

[grinderdust]

I can appreciate what you are doing Mariss, I would never doubt the quality of your product or your responsibility to your employees. The kind of jobs your company keeps in the USA are priceless these days. I am just hoping that your idea of responsibility doesn't end there. Small changes in leaders like yourself lead to a big difference in the world.

[alexccmeister]

All I can say is that change in this regard will be good. How much worse a situation is it going to be for us anyway? If climate change eventually is disproved, the legacy of that would be better technologies for all our benefit. And if it is real, at least we have already started the ball rolling on finding a solution (if we have not found one) that will help us eventually. So in my humble opinion, it is good what is being done right now by some environmentalists.

I don't think anyone in the right mind would want to spend countless hours away from families and friends to decipher the truth about global warming. What benefit will they get out of it. None that I can think of. If you ask me, it will the last thing I would want to do. I have better things to do in my life. But isn't it a great feeling to know that others are concern and working on our behalf?

So give them some credits is all I say. And for those of us that are skeptical, sit back and watch, you might just be surprised. And if at the end of the day its all a farce, you can always come forward and shout out "I told you so" and grin.

For me, the problem is real. Be it caused by human, geology, earth evolution and whatever terms anyone care to coin for this problem, it is still a problem. Are we doomed? Yes, we are doomed if we don't do anything.

As American Express would say it, don't leave home without it. Bring an umbrella before it rains. Prevention is better than cure. Don't wait until you need to got to the toilet to look for a roll of toilet paper. etc. etc. etc. etc.....

[martinw]

Martin, why can't you find the url you placed in your post?

http://www.countryguardian.net/warm_words.pdf

Dear jhowelb,

Sorry, I'm not sure which link you are searching for.

Is it this?

http://www.ippr.org/publicationsandr...ion.asp?id=485

Best wishes,

Martin

[jhowelb]

"That whiz bang technology is also an interesting topic of discussion."

Yup, electricity to charge it generated by burning coal or oil. The mechanical energy loss by the time it enters the car has to approach 75%. You have to account for the energy to make the batteries and all the whiz bang clap trap to make that lemon tick.

[grinderdust]

Jhowelb, The electricity to charge the batteries in hybrid cars does come indirectly from oil, I won't argue that. The oil (gasoline) is used to get the car moving just like any other car. the prius uses the oil more efficiently by using the atkinson cycle rather than the otto cycle used in most four stroke engines. When it is time to slow the car the whiz bang clap trap kicks in and uses the kinetic energy of the vehicle to charge the batteries with energy that otherwise would go to waste. The mechanical loss is indeed high but the stored energy is still significant. When descending hills it is downright amazing. I believe the energy reqired to make the batteries is offset by the energy saved in building a smaller engine and a mechanically simpler transmission (the power split device). The technology will only get better. I am hoping that when and if I replace my batteries, I will be upgrading as well. Lastly, Toyota is the dominating automaker of the known universe. They are not known for making lemons. What's under your wallet?

[307startup]

Wyld, To answer your questions. A Prius costs somwhere around $25,000 base for a new one. Alot cheaper than a Hummer last time I checked. My state no longer offers anything to anyone for buying a prius. My prius happens to be a pre owned model from last year and I could probably sell it for more than I paid. The batteries are nickel metal hydride and there are recycling facilities available for them.They also have a 100,000 mile warranty. Since I live about as far from hollywood as you can get (or any major city for that matter) I can assure you that my purchase was made for sound financial reasons. The whiz bang technology in a prius can blow the doors off a '65 beetle while holding 5 passengers and their cargo at a level of safety and comfort that surpasses most autos in it's price range. It usually gets even better mileage in town. Plus it doesn't leave an oil spot on the driveway or make that ratty air cooled boxer sound.
That whiz bang technology is also an interesting topic of discussion. Especially the power split device which is an amazing use of mechanics to control two motors and an engine. Very ingenious, very few moving parts.

Nickel/metal-hydride batteries are far more toxic to the environment than lead-acid batteries. Nickel is a heavy metal that congregates in the liver and brain. How pray tell, will you take your 6-8 batteries to the recycling center? Even our local recycling facilities load everything up at railhead and ship it east. 100,000 mile warranty...for 6-8 batteries that cost more to manufacture, purchase and dispose of than the lead acid battery in my Toyota Corolla which also has a 100,000 mile warranty.

Seems like a winning theory...let's continue. A hybrid mode vehicle is designed for in town driving, not highway. That's where the benefits of the technology shine. So you need a car that costs almost $30,000 to manufacture (Toyota's details...I can give you a website when I get home. They take a loss on every Prius with the hopes that the technology is viable for mass production...) that weighs approximately 400 lbs more than my car (same manufacturer) to travel to the grocery store & WalMart? Not to be a smartass, but my Corolla gets almost 30 mpg cruising around town. I deliver pizzas as a second job, and my commission for 2 nights' runs pays for a tank of gas. Commission...not tips. I digress...

I agree with you that the Prius is more driveable in today's conditions than a vintage Beetle. But to say that the Prius is better because it costs more and is more sophisticated is to buy into marketing and brand image. A vehicle is transport. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a penis extension, or your vehicular aura to the rest of the world.

Back to that whiz-bang technology...I know that it seems really cool...but why would you need TWO electric motors in hybrid mode? What's the point? Most 48V DC motors in the size range that motivate the Prius are torque monsters...producing more torque in fact than the 4-cylinder engine does at its peak. Torque is what moves you down the road...so again...why 2? And as for very few moving parts in the system...it's still a LOT more than in my Toyota Corolla. The majority of the system is electronics...controllers & sensors & software. Something like 100 lbs. more electronic components than are in my car...because I need a rolling PC. The only thing that would make the Prius better is if it were powered by Windows, and experienced a system crash during rush hour traffic.

I'm not knocking you Grinderdust, I just don't see how the Prius is a better car for the environment than my Corolla. And I also don't see how anyone in the world has the right to judge someone for purchasing a Hummer with money that they earned. That's what a free market allows for. When I have to purchase cookie-cutter clothes, components, houses & cars, because that's what "they" say is appropriate...where will innovation and research come into play? The old standard will be quite adequate thank you, we get by just fine with the ACME 200JX, my dad had one and I think it's quite the car. I loathe the day that the world echos the sentiments in books like 1984 and Brave New World. Hell, even Player Piano scares the bejeezus out of me. But that's what socialist agendas and praising homogeneity will bring. Guaranteed. A world of grey uniforms and pale faces. There is no room for individuality and alternatives in the path you suggest. For that alone, I'm willing to forego my winter heating bill, in exchange for that lovely tropical breeze y'all say is a-blowing.

[dynosor]

So in my humble opinion, it is good what is being done right now by some environmentalists.... So give them some credits is all I say.

I humbly disagree: Environmetalists with too much political power will cause more harm than good - look at what foolish policies have been adopted in the name of saving the planet: Lead on California, even if it makes no sense Basic math skills should be a requirement for anyone in government.

All I can say is that change in this regard will be good... How much worse a situation is it going to be for us anyway? If climate change eventually is disproved, the legacy of that would be better technologies for all our benefit.

Beware of unintended consequences: See post #14 at Weather Channel Founder: Global Warming ‘Greatest Scam in History’

[Mariss Freimanis]

Every change produces a spectrum of consequences ranging from bad to indifferent to good. You get into a car wreck. It's bad for you and your car. It's good for the doctor and the mechanic that fixes you both up and it's of no importance to the person that reads about it in the paper.

This is true for every change except global warming. Every consequence is bad with global warming. That sets off my BS alarm and it's ringing loud.

What I'm hoping for is the claims get more and more outrageous. Global warming will turn the earth into a boiling ball of lava, the oceans will rise 5,000 ft and cause everyone to get acne and bad breath. Then this fever will run its course and then we can move on to the next calamity. I still have my parka for the past and coming global cooling.

Mariss

[grinderdust]

Nickel/metal-hydride batteries are far more toxic to the environment than lead-acid batteries. Nickel is a heavy metal that congregates in the liver and brain. How pray tell, will you take your 6-8 batteries to the recycling center?

The whole point of recycling the batteries is to keep the toxins out of the environment and the batteries will probably get to their destination by oil power. In case you have forgotten gasoline and it's combustion byproducts are also deadly toxins.

Seems like a winning theory...let's continue. A hybrid mode vehicle is designed for in town driving, not highway. That's where the benefits of the technology shine.

The prius still gets 42+ on the highway thanks to it's atkinson cycle engine and great aerodymics.

So you need a car that costs almost $30,000 to manufacture (Toyota's details...I can give you a website when I get home. They take a loss on every Prius with the hopes that the technology is viable for mass production...) that weighs approximately 400 lbs more than my car (same manufacturer) to travel to the grocery store & WalMart?

Toyota no longer takes a loss on the prius. they actually are turning a profit. They did that to show the skeptics the benefits of the technology. I didn't buy the car to drive to the store and back. I bought it because I drive 45,000 miles a year in the course of my work and it is safe, comfortable and saves me money.

Not to be a smartass, but my Corolla gets almost 30 mpg cruising around town. I deliver pizzas as a second job, and my commission for 2 nights' runs pays for a tank of gas. Commission...not tips. I digress...

Not to be a wiseguy but my Prius gets 45+ mpg in town, which is half again better than your corolla and it is indeed heavier which is an advantage if I should ever collide with a '65 beetle.

I agree with you that the Prius is more driveable in today's conditions than a vintage Beetle. But to say that the Prius is better because it costs more and is more sophisticated is to buy into marketing and brand image. A vehicle is transport. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not a penis extension, or your vehicular aura to the rest of the world.

I swear I only bought the car because I needed the best transportation I could find.
As for it being an extension of my penis, I plead the fifth.

Back to that whiz-bang technology...I know that it seems really cool...but why would you need TWO electric motors in hybrid mode? What's the point? Most 48V DC motors in the size range that motivate the Prius are torque monsters...

The reason the prius uses two motors is because of the way the power split device works to control the speed of the wheels vs engine.

And as for very few moving parts in the system...it's still a LOT more than in my Toyota Corolla. The majority of the system is electronics...controllers & sensors & software. Something like 100 lbs. more electronic components than are in my car..

If you read up on the subject you will find that the power split device takes the place of your conventional transmission and actually does have alot fewer moving parts. Electronics are not moving parts,and don't forget the prius is drive by wire which also eliminates alot of mechanical components.

I'm not knocking you Grinderdust, I just don't see how the Prius is a better car for the environment than my Corolla.

I hope the time I have taken to answer your questions will help you see how it might be.

And I also don't see how anyone in the world has the right to judge someone for purchasing a Hummer with money that they earned.

If you still want a hummer, I won't judge you. Just remember the hummer won't extend your "aura" either and it costs alot more to buy and drive. I'm just doing what works for me.

When I have to purchase cookie-cutter clothes, components, houses & cars, because that's what "they" say is appropriate...where will innovation and research come into play?

The hybrids are anything but cookie cutter. They are the bold standouts in the industry and are exactly the kind of innovation and research I like to put my money into. Heck, I am going to buy a car anyways so why not?

[grinderdust]

Mariss, I for one am boycotting the phrases "global warming" and "climate change" because they are broad and too far distant for most people to understand. If you can't see the consequences of environmental irresponsibility in your own backyard the just look up "eastern garbage patch" and you will see it on a more global scale. Just because you are in a comfortable position and can't feel it, doesn't mean pollution doesn't affect someone less fortunate every day. Only the wealthy and the polluters are feeling the bad consequences of the environmental legislation. The rest of humanity stands to benefit.

[Mariss Freimanis]

My dear friend, please don't throw that "wealth" thing around. I remember in the late '60s my eyes stinging from smog so thick you could look directly at the sun at 4PM. I cannot even remember the last smog alert here in Southern California. I remember being told as a kid in Ohio not to set step in the Miami river for all the industrial effluent it carried. People now fish in it and eat what they catch. Both wealthy and poor eyes stung and skin itched and mine were not wealthy.

So much real progress has been made and 99% of the problems have been repaired. Don't say things aren't better unless you are too young to remember when they were much worse. That leaves 1% and it's in the region of diminishing returns.

I offer for your consideration the ROHS debacle. In return for eliminating a minuscule percentage of the lead used in the world, a completely inferior production technique has been mandated for electronics manufacturers. Components have to be stressed at 50C higher temperatures, the resulting solder joints are clearly inferior and reliability is compromised. When something fails, the entire unit must be discarded now because ROHS renders rework to replace a component too difficult. Yes, you can eat solder paste now but your landfills are filling up with unrepairable electronics.

Products that once were repaired are now discarded because few care to learn the skills to do that. Repairing something requires far less resources and energy than it took to make it originally. That's "environmentally friendly", "green", "responsible", "makes a difference" and all the other enviro-cliches.

People who used to go into the service trades and become electronic technicians now yearn to become environmental scientists. That is much easier than having to learn something difficult like math or common scientific logic. Now all you have to do is "feel" or "believe", wring your hands and insist that the dwindling supply of the technically educated produce a solution; after all, if you can imagine it, it must be easy.

That remaining 1% is at the mercy of unintended consequences. It will increase to a much bigger number if we dismantle our technological society. Low technology is dirty technology and all the billions of people will have no choice but to use it. Unless of course you eliminate people from the earth. Recently some of the greatest Environmental Philosophers have seriously proposed exactly that. It's nice they tip their hand to show just how spiritually degenerate and nihilist the movement is becoming.

Mariss