The Coming Climate Change

[dang]

It's funny that every other country in tghe world basically agrees that climate change is THE issue for the next century. Tomorrow a new report is coming out. As if the one that came out a couple of months ago, from the UN wasn't enough.

I'd like to know how any of the Global Warming deniers can literally see the ice melting before their very eyes and still think the way they do. Well, not really. If you can't see what's happening with your own eyes, then I can't be bothered to care about your opinion.

Most of you are probably old enough to have children. Maybe grown children. It's interesting to me that those of you who fit that description are prepared to leave a world that closely resembles a mad max movie to those kids so you can sound authoritative without doing any actual research yourselves.

[jhowelb]

The ONLY constant is change.
Consensus is political.
Science is demonstrable, repeatable exercise of facts.
There is NO consensus of science, there MAY me a consensus of scientists who are subject error.
The best state of climate is WHAT, WHERE and FOR WHOM?
And what kind of arrogance decides to "control the weather" for his own benefit?
Or is it just another power play to gain political dominance and financial gain?

[Mariss Freimanis]

dang

1) The scientific method does not rely on consensus. Only a herd is guided by consensus. In science one right person trumps 10,000 wrong ones. Think Albert Einstein, Issac Newton, Copernicus and even Dr. William Grey .

2) Deniers; what a strange an interesting word. Religious in connotation, a word reserved for heretics and blasphemers. It does frame the context though; the argument has nothing to do with reasoned thought, rather everything to do with belief, feeling, fear and superstition.

3) "Believe as I do or else your opinion and you are not worth my consideration." This is dehumanizing and this dehumanization is the first step on a trail that leads to the worst humans beings have done. All reason and humanity ends at that trail head.

My friend, you have been manipulated. No amount of 747s or i-pods, cars, plasma TVs or CNC machines differentiate you from our ancestors who also were equally susceptible. Here's how the manipulation works: First put into your head a tremendous calamity is looming. The cause of the calamity is something you are doing and therefore you are responsible for it. You are then offered a way you can deflect the calamity by doing something personally, as an individual, to rectify it. Something like separating green waste from glass and cardboard in your trash or buying a Prius; doesn't matter.

This is the clever part. Fear leads to a desire for action and an approved action is offered. Taking that action validates what you feared is real and that only your actions can forestall the feared consequence. Now you believe in what you might have doubted or at least kept an open mind about. Sin and atonement, fear and pagan sacrifice, carbon offsets and special dispensations. This trick has been played unchanged for thousands of years.

Yes, we have two young adult children. My wife and I have taught them well about many things.

Mariss

[alexccmeister]

Originally Posted by Mariss Freimanis 3) "Believe as I do or else your opinion and you are not worth my consideration." This is dehumanizing and this dehumanization is the first step on a trail that leads to the worst humans beings have done. All reason and humanity ends at that trail head. My friend, you have been manipulated. No amount of 747s or i-pods, cars, plasma TVs or CNC machines differentiate you from our ancestors who also were equally susceptible. Here's how the manipulation works: First put into your head a tremendous calamity is looming. The cause of the calamity is something you are doing and therefore you are responsible for it. You are then offered a way you can deflect the calamity by doing something personally, as an individual, to rectify it. Something like separating green waste from glass and cardboard in your trash or buying a Prius; doesn't matter. This is the clever part. Fear leads to a desire for action and an approved action is offered. Taking that action validates what you feared is real and that only your actions can forestall the feared consequence. Now you believe in what you might have doubted or at least kept an open mind about. Sin and atonement, fear and pagan sacrifice, carbon offsets and special dispensations. This trick has been played unchanged for thousands of years. Mariss

Exactly what skeptics are doing. Don't believe in this thing. Its a lie, its fiction and etc etc etc. Lets put it in perspective here. When we the believers feels something should be done, what ever the outcome, and here I have to say its only good outcome, affects us all whether you believe it or not. But when we have to accept what your opinions are and if everyone does that, we might as well just go along the same route and pollute the air more and more and wait till the climate starts to effects us all. Which side should I go with? Its pretty obvious isn't it?

Look at the ozone layer, its scientifically proven that CFC caused the depletion of the ozone. When countries starts to ban the use of CFCs. The ozone layer starts to rejuvenate. What further facts do we need. Its staring us right in the face. When a chemical like CFC can do such a thing. Imagine the effects of what other pollutants we put out can do.

And yes, it is fear, fear for our humankind. Fear for the result that our ignorance will produce should we go along this route of self destruction. Human being are capable of doing that.

[jhowelb]

And because you "believe" the boogie man will get you, I should give away two thirds of my income. Abandon my life style because you "feel" SOMETHING should be done whether it is right or wrong.

No, chickenlittle, I won't follow you into the cold, dark night and starve my self on the basis of your faith. It is your religion, YOU follow it. As for me, I can recognize pagan gods at a huge distance and smell a B.S. story farther than that.

By the way, the last "crisis" with the ozone layer turned out to have NOTHING to do with chlorofluorocarbons. ANOTHER scientific consensus that has been PROVEN wrong after great expense!


To listen to todays lunatics you'd expect flying saucers on the White House lawn, souls flying off to the tails of comets and maybe Farrakhan's "mother ship" to be discovered in orbit. In the bargain maybe all those inductees will be released from the black helicopters.

When "the outcome" will be destruction of the world economy you can expect THAT change to be met with armed resistance.

As I sit here with a terminal case of COPD I'm VERY interested in clean air. So lets clean up the air for the sake of clean air. We can pick up all the trash without starving. We can hunt for a real answer to the energy question without adopting a Spartan life style.

[307startup]

Originally Posted by jhowelb And because you "believe" the boogie man will get you, I should give away two thirds of my income. Abandon my life style because you "feel" SOMETHING should be done whether it is right or wrong. No, chickenlittle, I won't follow you into the cold, dark night and starve my self on the basis of your faith. It is your religion, YOU follow it. As for me, I can recognize pagan gods at a huge distance and smell a B.S. story farther than that. By the way, the last "crisis" with the ozone layer turned out to have NOTHING to do with chlorofluorocarbons. ANOTHER scientific consensus that has been PROVEN wrong after great expense! To listen to todays lunatics you'd expect flying saucers on the White House lawn, souls flying off to the tails of comets and maybe Farrakhan's "mother ship" to be discovered in orbit. In the bargain maybe all those inductees will be released from the black helicopters. When "the outcome" will be destruction of the world economy you can expect THAT change to be met with armed resistance. As I sit here with a terminal case of COPD I'm VERY interested in clean air. So lets clean up the air for the sake of clean air. We can pick up all the trash without starving. We can hunt for a real answer to the energy question without adopting a Spartan life style.

jhowelb

I actually agree with you on a great number of points, the ones we disagree on don't really matter. For me, consensus is irrationality defined. Who needs to think, when we can just agree, and get along, because I'm just too much of a spineless, ballless **** to stand for something and fight if necessary. That's what consensus is. The "can't we all just get along" mentality that searches for it's "leader", with the mewling, bawling sheeple following the shepherd to the brink, and morphing into some twisted lemming, jumping into the abyss while that "leader" stands by to pick up the pieces and find a new cause to poster-boy.

I am so sick of the Armageddon view point. People are their own problems. They cause them. They live them. They make the same mistakes, in repackaged form. NEW! IMPROVED!! and just as stupid as before. But it's NEW! IMPROVED!! it can't be wrong. Psychology is science, but just because it's twisted to invade the brains of millions or billions of people sucking MY air, doesn't mean that whatever point they pontificate and regurgitate is science. Just the method of brainwash or brainwiping.

Every living creature on earth evolves...or eventually goes extinct. So when man starts making those next jarring steps into evolution...will the rest of the devolved in our species make a consensus that they are an aberration and should be destroyed to preserve "humanity"? Evolution by committee? What a frightening idea to mull.

On a lighter note...what's wrong with a Spartan lifestyle? The Spartans were the greatest warriors the world has ever seen, until they were corrupted by outside influences. Influences they allowed. Sometimes maintaining pur sang in a subculture can allow a culture to flourish.

As sad as it makes me, we view violence as a necessary evil when diplomacy fails. But it makes heroes out of common men. If those same common men displayed those acts of violence out of that environment, he is called a criminal and penned like an animal for a length of time, sometimes the remainder of his life. Violence is part of nature...we are part of nature...and violence is very much a part of us. Just as the ability to reason, and to make art. As a species we need to remember why we are top of the food chain. Violence. We may have more mental capacity than other species, but we have soft bodies, no claws or fangs. It is only because of our untold penchance for violence, a carnal bloodlust, that brought us to where we are. That violence bred an instinctual fear in every animal on land. One that is still very much present in most of the animals still alive. One that is missing in modern man, when he sits in the relative comfort of home and makes decisions that affect others around him. Only when he is confronted with violence and his life put in jeopardy does he begin to use his facilities for reason.

I do not condone tyranny. Oppressed and oppressors alike can turn to either. I do suggest that an armed society is a polite society due to the unarguable fact that people think before they speak or act when under the influence of an untimely death. I won't harm you if you don't harm me.

The tie-in is that surrendering your freedoms or rights to those who mean you harm is more evil than the evil being done to you. Man was born a fighter, and when a fight is brought to you, you must engage with the full measure you are capable. This is what has brought civilization to the high-point (for what it is) we enjoy today.

Are you familiar with the Inquisition? Of burning witches at the stake? Violence being done in the name of (insert your cause here) against other men is evil. Violence done in response to those who do violence to you, is to establish balance and order to the chaos that flourishes.

We only seek to live. We do not have an agenda. We are not trying to convert. We do not seek to punish outsiders and reward those who have been loyal. So why do the neo-greenies seek to push an agenda, in which there is no room for anything other than their ceremonies & litagies. To establish a new world order that will destroy the middle class and further seperate the poor and the wealthy. Why are so many of the future slave-class willing to drink the kool-aid with bright-eyed enthusiasm?

[dang]

Well, that was very flowery prose.
A consensus in scientific terms is when a group of ->scientists<- use scientific method to reach a conclusion which is published, reviewed and then agreed upon. Scientists live to bash each other's theories. Would ya'll have me believe then, that all these great minds have suddenly stopped nit picking with each other in order to follow the leader?

Also, how could the ultra rich better corner everyone else than to downgrade any new energy source, ya know aside from oil. I should, from now on refer to oil as peak oil, because it's very nearly gone all together.
I'm also not sure how multiplying the energy sources available to us, and thereby creating untold numbers of new jobs would further separate the rich and the poor. Oh, and did I mention that Oil is sold to us by people who HATE US?

Me thinks that the flowery prose hides within it a lack of consideration of these merely semi literate, but obvious points. You don't make soap for a living do you WYLD?

[martinw]

Originally Posted by cjmerlincnc The simple truth is, due to the problem of grants being hard to come by for the scientific community and goverments eager to obtain more money from the public, it is a bandwagon that could benefit both parties. Those scientists you may call "Maverick" are those men and woman who have integrity and honour but unfortunatly very little power.

Dear cjmerlincnc,

Absolutely..,

Look at this " policy document "

http://www.countryguardian.net/warm_words.pdf

Page 25, Treating Climate Change as Beyond Argument

Best wishes,

Martin

[jhowelb]

Dang,
Pull your head out of it. There isn't a consensus of scientists, only those nursing on the government teat. (our tax money) There have been no scientific methods applied, no repeatable experiments.

Not even observation bears out this trash masquerading as science, for example: " 50 million years ago the temperature averaged a full 20 degrees higher than today."

This is an observation by those same scientists. Was mankind also responsible for that? How about the melting of any one of the ice ages?

The above indicated "paper" has some VERY telling passages.

".........need to treat the argument as having been won. This means simply behaving as if climate change exists and is real, and that individual actions are effective. This must be done by stepping away from the ‘advocates debate’ described earlier, rather than by stating and re-stating these things as fact.
The ‘facts’ need to be treated as being so taken-for-granted that they need not be spoken. The certainty of the Government’s new climate-change slogan – ‘Together this generation will tackle climate change’ (Defra 2006) – gives an example of this approach. It constructs, rather than claims, its own factuality.

But go ahead and have another glass of cool aid, after all it IS your religion.

[dang]

I'm un-subsribing from this thread.

[grinderdust]

Whether global warming is real and whether the polar ice caps are melting because we are emitting too much co2 or from deforesting the equator or from natural causes, we all know that we are polluting this world and causing the extinction of species on a massive scale. I know that I have thrown out enough manmade garbage in the course of my 35 years to cover 10 acres and then some. All that while recycling everything I can. Each of my neighbors does the same thing whether it's two bags a week or four or ten. The air is not good in the city(pick a city). The water is not good in rural areas downstream from the city. The oil that we burn also spills into the ocean sometimes so the beaches we treasure aren't any good either.
Mariss, as a person who lives because of the earth not on it, I have to say I was a bit offended by this statement:

My friend, you have been manipulated. No amount of 747s or i-pods, cars, plasma TVs or CNC machines differentiate you from our ancestors who also were equally susceptible. Here's how the manipulation works: First put into your head a tremendous calamity is looming. The cause of the calamity is something you are doing and therefore you are responsible for it. You are then offered a way you can deflect the calamity by doing something personally, as an individual, to rectify it. Something like separating green waste from glass and cardboard in your trash or buying a Prius; doesn't matter.

I also happen to drive a Prius and also happen to be the kind of guy who separates green waste from glass and cardboard. The reason I like machining is because of the technology that it makes possible. If you can dream something you can build it. Like a Prius for example,which might just save you some money on gas, further the advancement of technology, reduce our country's dependance on oil, and save you from sucking on your own fumes at red lights. The power to build machines such as automobiles and warheads brings great responsibility. Mariss, I hope you are running your company in a responsible way. Anyone who owns a business has an ideal opportunity to make a difference today and tomorrow. And maybe even impress a few potential customers along the way.

[jhowelb]

Had it not been for fossil fuels the industrial revolution would never have occurred. You owe every thing you have, even your very existence to the discovery and utilization of them.

Any one offended by Mariss' statement is LOOKING for something to be offended about.

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings,Dang! Just wanted to make you think.