The Coming Climate Change

[alexccmeister]

I have been reading the amazon review of Lomborg's book and I bring to your attention of a comment by a reviewer and he/she says, taking Richard Branson ' as an example, why he spend 3 billion dollars to find the most efficient fuel technology which may not be of benefit, rather than spend the money on getting clean water to the needy and poor. What Mr. Branson's doing, beside the fact that he will get even richer, is to find a technology that will exist long term and help not just us now but us in the future.

Remember the exercise you do when inside the plane? If there is decompression, you are suppose to put the oxygen mask on yourself before putting it on your child. There is a reason for doing this. It may sound cruel but it saves life.

I am not saying that we ignore clean water. But the truth is we are not, as i am sure there are people and NGO's out there who are working hard to get clean water to the masses. And who is to say Richard Branson isn't doing exactly that in his philantrophic lifestyle.

Giving large sum of money to some countries to help the poor isn't the best way as we all know. Corruption runs rampant when money is pledged to do something good in a developing country. A large portion of it will probably go to some greedy politicians and middle men leaving just a small amount to help those needy poor.

[xyzdonna]

Originally Posted by Geof Run the gauntlet of the Global Warming Afficionados and buy your own copy .

Oh, I see, it's a book. I thought it was an article put out by the IPCC. Thanks to Marisse's post I went to Amazon and read some of the reviews, many were quite thoughtful. Here is an excerpt from one review that I found insightful.
Donna

"I was surprised that Lomborg conceded that global warming is quite real and clearly caused by human activities of burning fossil fuel. Yet he somehow managed to minimize all the negative consequences of the warming world that he expects his great grandkids to inhabit. At least they will never freeze to death he says, apparently with great seriousness. The economic model that he applies clearly does not recognize the complexity of climate on the natural systems on which we depend for our survival and the likelihood of species extinctions and crop failures."

So they are starting to come around and admit that it's happening and that it's man made. Brilliant, the delay in figuring out what to do about it will no doubt exacerbate the damage. I've said before that the Bush administration has put us 8 years behind the curve in implementing a meaningful energy policy. So now the debate shifts from whether or not it's man made to "let's just sit back and enjoy the nice warm winters. They're cute but we really didn't need all those polar bears and penguins anyway."

We should have been working on energy independence a long time ago for a lot of reasons. The petro dollars we send over to the middle east not only fund terrorism, they also adversely effects our balance of payments deficit and and thereby reduce the value of our currency. Under this current administration the dollar has been reduced in value by about one third. Middle eastern countries are growing weary of holding dollar denominated assets and are grousing about dumping the dollar for the euro. If that should happen the consequences will be dire for the US economy. Maybe all those conservative Republicans will take a different view of things when they see their dollar assets drying up.
Donna

[xyzdonna]

Originally Posted by WYLD Wouldn't the fact that there were prior periods of global heating and cooling, set precedent to establish that "GW" and "CC" are real...and also at the same time, wouldn't that fact be enough to establish that humans, regardless of their industrial proclivities and "greenhouse gas" contributions, are not responsible for the current climate change? Or is that the same kind of circular logic the neo-greenies employ?

Ever heard of the post hoc fallacy? It's considered the greatest (or at least most overused) fallacy in logic. Post hoc ergo proctor hoc, Latin for after this therefore because of this. Extensively employed by preachers, politicians, conservative talk show hosts, and other unsavory characters. Whether or not climate change is the result of human activity doesn't depend on the order of occurrence of events. You have to use science to evaluate this, not circuitous logic.
Donna

[Geof]

Originally Posted by xyzdonna .... Whether or not climate change is the result of human activity doesn't depend on the order of occurrence of events. You have to use science to evaluate this, not circuitous logic. Donna

Perfectly correct, however, the Anthropogenic Global Warming disciples do use fuzzy logic. Their basic premise is that Global Warming is occurring; no denying that it is, CO2 levels are going up, no denying that they are and most of the new CO2 is from fossil fuels, it is. Ergo; fossil fuel generated CO2 increase is causing Global Warming. They make the mistake of assuming a correlation means a cause. Then they extrapolate and predict all manner of catastrophes; extinctions and all manner of things. However, 6000 years ago global temperatures were some 6 to 8 degrees higher than now; this was known as the Climatic Optimum and there is ample evidence for it. So if mass extinction and wordlwide disruption of ecosystems are going to occur in the future due to an increase of 2 degrees surely it must have occurred in the past with the warming of the Climatic Optimum? There is absolutely no evidence that this did occur and the alarmist claims that it will occur in the future are without foundation.

[Mariss Freimanis]

1) It's a book. It is nothing to be afraid of. It's OK to read all sorts of books.

My bookshelf has a dogeared copy of Algor's "Earth in a Lurch". It sits next to Herrnstein's "Bell Curve". Next to it is Cleaver's "Soul on Fire" followed by Friedrich Nietzsche's works. There are many, many more books. They all get along; my bookshelves have not caught on fire yet. Read the books first, then read the critics. Give the authors' ideas a fair hearing; form your own opinion before reading other's opinions.

2) Making gratuitous political and religious insults serves no one; it only lessens the person saying it. By some genetic defect I personally am unable to have faith, however I immensely respect those who can and do. It is the apex of being human and is as separate as reason is from emotion. Faith gives sublime certainty life has a purpose; reason and emotion cannot do that.

Politically, I have my heroes and villains. They may or may not be yours. I won't inflict you with my list, please have the perspicacity to not inflict me with your list. I kindly suggest it takes away from the mutual regard we all have for one another here. Avoid the urge, it does not add.

Mariss

[Geof]

Read "A tsunami of nonsense"

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/n...c-55a6bedd690e

If the link does not work just put the quote above into Google.

[Mariss Freimanis]

Sadly my current reading list is comprised of the collected works of the great philosopher Verilog. Dense reading.

Mariss

[Geof]

Remember Katrina and how Global Warming was making hurricanes more numerous and stronger?

Well last year was nothing spectacular and this year was just average; 14 named storms and 6 hurricanes.

Perhaps Global Warming has gone on vacation for a couple of years.

[jhowelb]

Twenty-Two Ways To Be A Good Democrat


1. You have to be against capital punishment, but support abortion on demand.


2. You have to believe that businesses create oppression and governments create prosperity.


3. You have to believe that guns in the hands of law-abiding Americans are more of a threat
than U.S. Nuclear weapons technology in the hands of Chinese and North Korean communists.


4. You have to believe that there was no art before federal funding.


5. You have to believe that global temperatures are less affected by cyclical documented
changes in the earth's climate and more affected by soccer moms driving SUV's.


6. You have to believe that gender roles are artificial but being homosexual is natural.


7. You have to believe that the AIDS virus is spread by a lack of federal funding.


8. You have to believe that the same teacher who can't teach fourth graders how to read
is somehow qualified to teach those same kids about sex.


9. You have to believe that hunters don't care about nature, but loony activists who have
never been outside of San Francisco do.


10. You have to believe that self-esteem is more important than actually doing something
to earn it.


11. You have to believe that Mel Gibson spent $25 million of his own money to make
"The Passion of the Christ" for financial gain only.


12. You have to believe the NRA is bad because it supports certain parts of the Constitution,
while the ACLU is good because it supports certain parts of the Constitution.


13. You have to believe that taxes are too low, but ATM fees are too high.


14. You have to believe that Margaret Sanger and Gloria Steinem are more important to
American history than Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Edison, and A.G. Bell.


15. You have to believe that standardized tests are racist, but racial quotas and set-asides
are not.


16. You have to believe that Hillary Clinton is normal and is a very nice person.


17. You have to believe that the only reason socialism hasn't worked anywhere it's been tried is
because the right people haven't been in charge.


18. You have to believe conservatives telling the truth belong in jail, but a liar and a sex
offender belonged in the White House.


19. You have to believe that homosexual parades displaying drag, transvestites, and bestiality
should be constitutionally protected, and manger scenes at Christmas should be illegal.


20. You have to believe that illegal Democrat Party funding by the Chinese Government is
somehow in the best interest to the United States .


21. You have to believe that this message is a part of a vast, right wing conspiracy.


22. You have to believe that it's okay to give federal workers the day off on Christmas Day
but it's not okay to say "Merry Christmas".



Ready to vote???







"Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the
world."
Albert Einstein

[307startup]

jhowelb...

You crack me up! Ultimately though, the parties aren't any different. Remember after the last election when many Republicans & Democrats switched parties to get the votes they needed to be reelected? The same party swap that gave the Republicans the majority in the Senate & the House? That leads me to believe that either pols have no idealogy (which I take as a given) or that fundamentally and in action both parties have the same agenda. The speeches might change and partylines differ, but I didn't really notice much of a socialist aspect to Bill Clintons reign. Call me naive, but JFK was a Democrat, and he did more for America the nation during his altogether too short term, than Reagan or Bush Sr. did for the duration of theirs.

I don't think that Global Warming/Climate Change has anything to do with party platforms (Al Gore is a Dem...so what? He's also from Tennessee...does that mean he paints himself orange and takes off his shirt at Volunteer games?) as much as it does have a similarity to religion. The fanaticals of any religion are often the loudest voices...sometimes all you hear is screaming from the pew...and the screaming of people after a bomb goes off.

From my experience and perspective, GW/CC is the new Armageddon that all religions preach and pray for. The one cause that "everyone" hopes to unite us with will be the one cause that creates further divides. Moreso than what's being exhibited in this forum. I fear that there will be very dire consequences in the name of GW/CC and that we may be at the very beginning of a new series of Crusades. Let's hope they don't make it to a Childrens' Crusade this go around...

[307startup]

Originally Posted by xyzdonna Ever heard of the post hoc fallacy? It's considered the greatest (or at least most overused) fallacy in logic. Post hoc ergo proctor hoc, Latin for after this therefore because of this. Extensively employed by preachers, politicians, conservative talk show hosts, and other unsavory characters. Whether or not climate change is the result of human activity doesn't depend on the order of occurrence of events. You have to use science to evaluate this, not circuitous logic. Donna

Thank you Donna

I agree with you. Using what scientific data we have...both corrupted and uncorrupted...establishes that we DO NOT know for fact that humans have caused global warming. That is a hypothesis, not even a theory. What we do know for FACT is that the planet has undergone periods of heating and cooling prior to mankinds arrival, let alone as a dominant species. We also know that burning hydrocarbons releases CO2 into the atmosphere. We have not established that the rising amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is a recent phenomenon or a reoccuring condition. We haven't tried to establish if it is caused by a single event or a series of events that have been in motion prior to the industrial age. What egotistical creatures we are to believe that trees only make sound when we are there to hear them fall, and that the Earth gets warmer because we burn gasoline. Cause and effect...there are so many variables that it will be damn near impossible to accurately determine if we are THE problem, ONE of the problems, a contributing factor, or simply a new phenomenon to a cyclical event.

[jhowelb]

There was no party swap, majority and minority changed as result of elections.
Sadly, there some in GOP who are also liberal (socialist) but by and large that position belongs to the dems.
If you can't see a socialist bent to both Klintons you are in bad need of spectacles, not paying attention or don't want to look.

GW/CC is the new Armageddon of the fanatic newage climate faction of the great liberal religion to replace all religions. On that much we agree.

Get this, YOU WILL NEVER WIN THE DISCUSSION WITH THESE GUYS AND NEITHER WILL YOU MAKE ONE CONVERT OR EVEN SWAY ONE!
That is the way with all fanatics from Islamic extremists to Communists to even certain Christian fundamentalists (Jim Jones) to comet chasing lunatics. They are devout and unswerving nut cases.

I'm sure I've just thrown gasoline on the fire, but it's true and the denials and attacks that will follow will prove me right.