Most Important Greenhouse Gases

[ImanCarrot]

At a previous job we were sticking 15 gallons of trichloro- trifluoro ethylene intot he atmosphere every day... and there was no need for it. Now THAT'S a greenhouse gas and a half.

[fizzissist]

Originally Posted by ImanCarrot we were sticking 15 gallons of trichloro- trifluoro ethylene intot he atmosphere every day... .

Under the 'Cap N Trade' program you could have paid me $12 per day and I would have promised not to dump 15 gallons of trichloro- trifluoro ethylene into the atmosphere every day...

You would have been guilt-free, I would have been $12/day richer, and the world would have been the same. Just like the real carbon cap and trade system.

Before anyone thinks I'm being stupid (which is really a different topic anyway..), that is exactly what the chinese are doing this very moment by taking money under the cap and trade scam to close dirty coal plants....that they were going to close anyway.

[fizzissist]

I have to say that so far I'm impressed by the poll results...

9 people think that CO2, which represents .038% of the atmosphere, is the most significant greenhouse gas.

14 people think that H2O, which represents between .3 and 3% of the atmosphere, is the most significant greenhouse gas.

Me? I voted for H2O, 'cause I think it'll take the series. Unless of course CO2 comes from behind and starts forming clouds, in which case all bets are off.

[Madclicker]

Originally Posted by fizzissist I have to say that so far I'm impressed by the poll results... 9 people think that CO2, which represents .038% of the atmosphere, is the most significant greenhouse gas. 14 people think that H2O, which represents between .3 and 3% of the atmosphere, is the most significant greenhouse gas. Me? I voted for H2O, 'cause I think it'll take the series. Unless of course CO2 comes from behind and starts forming clouds, in which case all bets are off.

I think the point I wanted to make is emerging and becoming clear.

[sdantonio]

the Chinese and Indians are dumping tons of crap into the air every day with no regard to "cap and trade" or any kind of international treaties. And their economies are growing rapidly which means their polution volume is also growing rapidly.

In Central America, the Hondouras Mahogony is a prized species of tree. So much so that a lumber company, locating a large one, may clear a logging road several miles into the forest to get to it. After they get the tree the locals move in and have a slash and burn party where they deforest areas on both sides of the logging road to set up small subsistance farms. Once the land is pretty much used up and no longer farmable, they follow the logging truck to the next Hondo tree. So what do we do. Educate them as to the follies of their ways... probably won't do much. Tell then the gods of the forest will be ticked off at them and give then gout... probably won't work for long. The only real thing that will work is to let them screw up enough land the hopefully learn from the folly of their ways before they screw up to much.

Young, formerly third world, beginning industrial countries are kind of like this where it comes to polution. Of course, older more established industrialized economies also make polution too. I'm not laying i all on the Chinese.

One more true story.

Anaconda Copper. Herad of them.. probably not, dissapeared in the early '70's you say. They used to be an American company. Smelting Copper and creating all kinds of really nasty copper byproducts that were highly toxic. So much so that there was a defoliated ring around their main plant, a zone of death to be dramatic. The feds imposed strict regulations on them to control this problem. Where are they now? Out of bussiness? Heck no! Their now a Mexican company with no polution controls.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by sdantonio ....Anaconda Copper. Herad of them.. probably not, dissapeared in the early '70's you say. They used to be an American company. Smelting Copper and creating all kinds of really nasty copper byproducts that were highly toxic.....

Yes I have heard of Anaconda. I think they were the ones that left us in BC with a wonderful situation when they abandoned Brittania Mine on Howe Sound.

But I this post is a plea for elucidation from fizzisist.

I found this:

http://www.umich.edu/~gs265/society/greenhouse.htm

Which had the following:

The "greenhouse effect" is the heating of the Earth due to the presence of greenhouse gases. It is named this way because of a similar effect produced by the glass panes of a greenhouse. Shorter-wavelength solar radiation from the sun passes through Earth's atmosphere, then is absorbed by the surface of the Earth, causing it to warm. Part of the absorbed energy is then reradiated back to the atmosphere as long wave infared radiation. Little of this long wave radiation escapes back into space; the radiation cannot pass through the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. The greenhouse gases selectively transmit the infared waves, trapping some and allowing some to pass through into space. The greenhouse gases absorb these waves and reemits the waves downward, causing the lower atmosphere to warm.(www.eb.com:180)

I put in the bolding; tell me how do the gases know which way is down and how do they reemit only in that direction?

This was there also:

Carbon Dioxide (CO2) is a colorless, odorless non-flammable gas and is the most prominent Greenhouse gas in Earth's atmosphere

Are you having difficulty breathing? You should in an atmosphere with no water vapor.

And this:

Carbon Dioxide is emitted into the air as humans exhale, burn fossil fuels for energy, and deforest the planet. Every year humans add over 30 billion tons of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere by these processes,

I guess either we eat fossil fuels or import food from outer space. I can't think how we have any net effect as humans, can you?

Last one:

Fossil Fuels were created chiefly by the decay of plants from millions of years ago

If the plants decayed, i.e. were metabolized by bacteria, etc, into H2O and CO2, where did the carbon in the fossil fuels come from?

I always thought the .edu indicated an educational institution but I didn't know things had degenerated that far.

[fizzissist]

China and India are going at a rate that will blow past us by 2009-2010 in CO2 emissions and other pollutants...assuming they aren't ALREADY puking other pollutants an order of magnitude more than us....

Check out pics of smog in China...
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...h+Images&gbv=2

EDIT....
"A NASA-funded study found some climate models might be overestimating the amount of water vapor entering the atmosphere as the Earth warms. Since water vapor is the most important heat-trapping greenhouse gas in our atmosphere, some climate forecasts may be overestimating future temperature increases...."
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/...5humidity.html

Geof,
You want me to explain what specifically? The principles of wavelength bandpass/absorbtion for gasses and vapors, or statements made by UMich which are in error? They've got a great weather URL, and a very good lawschool...but that don't mean they're right all the time, and I'm not responsible for what they say or do.

[40fordcoupe]

On the matter of cows causing greenhouse gases. Unless they are in a feedlot most cows eat grass. Do away with all the cows and then what happens to the grass?. Also a lot of the pasture land is not suitable for growing any cultivated crop. So cows are harvesting grass produced by sunlight and turning it into some useful i.e. human food. BTW Cave paintings go back what? 30,000 years. Ever see a cave painting showing someone hunting for vegetables?

[Geof]

Originally Posted by fizzissist ..Geof, You want me to explain what specifically? ..

Nothing really. I just find it amusing and annoying that mistakes and mis-statements occur in things like that link. When someone is writing on a controversial topic any mistakes can give a dissenter a seemingly valid arguement to say the writer is wrong. The reemitting waves downwards is something I have seen for years; the emission is non-directional, it goes up as well and sideways and every which ways.

[fizzissist]

It is that very reason I generally prefer to offer a link to the paper itself when possible, and I try to keep the quotes in context...which I don't always do.
Yes, on occasion I get pissy and don't include quotes or data that can cast a shadow, but for the most part, I'm real careful to not provide ammo for the other side.

With all the media focus on global warming and the comments that the debate is over, it is fabulously amusing to see scientific programs covering non-climate topics where they say that the debate...such as with origins of dinosaurs and their history.....needs to continue for the science to progress.

Yup. It sure does.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by fizzissist ....Yes, on occasion I get pissy.....

Whats your definition of occasion ? I can guess at 'pissy'.

[rianmullins]

Does anybody else get irritated by the use of "tons of CO2".
If you don't know what I mean, how much helium is in a ton of helium?
At least they should say metric ton, which is a unit of mass and not weight.