Its all very well to talk about global warming, but....

[ynneb]

...in many ways we should also be more outraged about what we are doing to our fellow man. We sit back and allow our governments to torture people, invade other countries etc. We need to protest more. We need to write more letters to our politicians. The current Australian and American governments are a disgrace to humanity. I dont believe thier lies and propaganda. If the reason for invading Iraq was for humanity reasons, then why dont we also invade Zimbabwe and other such countries. The truth is its about oil, and we sit back and do nothing about the attorcities our goverments commit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Xd0Q2Auz4

[phomann]

Originally Posted by ynneb ...in many ways we should also be more outraged about what we are doing to our fellow man. We sit back and allow our governments to torture people, invade other countries etc. We need to protest more. We need to write more letters to our politicians. The current Australian and American governments are a disgrace to humanity. I dont believe thier lies and propaganda. If the reason for invading Iraq was for humanity reasons, then why dont we also invade Zimbabwe and other such countries. The truth is its about oil, and we sit back and do nothing about the attrcities our goverments commit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Xd0Q2Auz4

I could not agree more. A case in point,

Capture someone, keep them in a secret CIA prison for 3 years and guess what, they confess they masterminded every major terrorist act in the last decade.

Oh, did I mention he confessed without cohersion. What idiot would behieve that!

He probably also confessed to be the mastermind behind the JFK assassination.


Whether he is the mastermind or not, the confession has not and cannot have any credibility. We cannot treat people like this.



Peter.

[ynneb]

Whether he is the mastermind or not, the confession has not and cannot have any credibility. We cannot treat people like this.

Nor can we lock them up indefinitely for years without a trial, just because we suspect they may be guilty.
I have written to our "dessicated coconut" on many occasions only to receive standard pre judging comments that "these people are terrorists". How do we know, if we don't send them to trial ?

George Bush and John Howard, have bought untold shame on both of our countries.

[Rekd]

Are we talking about global warming here, or are we just bush bashing?

It's sad how America is seen as the problem here. Radical Islam has been doing this crap for centuries, and only now have the resources to do it on a very large and very noticeable scale, yet somehow it's all bush's fault for wanting to protect Western Civilization from a clear and un-denied (by the Radical Islamics) attempt to destroy anything and everything that is not Islam.

I don't think sawing off heads on TV, dragging dead, mutilated bodies through the streets, training children to hate and kill and commit suicide, or killing women and children in the name of God are the kinds of values we should allow to continue.

BTW, you've been watching too much 24. "Torture" in the eyes of the US is water-boarding, loud music and being forced to shave your beard. Damn ruthless Americans!

"I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan," he said. "For those who would like to confirm, there are pictures of me on the Internet holding his head."

All this thread is going to do is start fights, so I would suggest it stops now before it gets out of hand.

[Madclicker]

POW's don't get trials. Nor do they get released until the war is over, which in this case may be never.

[Rekd]

Originally Posted by Madclicker POW's don't get trials. Nor do they get released until the war is over, which in this case may be never.

This guy will never be released, they said that last night. He will be a viable threat to (civilized) humanity until he dies, and likely afterwards. He openly and happily admitted what he did. Experts say he's trying to martyr himself, make himself comparable with OBL, and say he's probably responsible for 80% of what he claims.

He was bragging about what he did when he was first captured years ago. He's only trying to play our system, like they always do by saying he was tortured, and they always succeed because we're too PC and too nice and too damn worried what the rest of the world will think of us.

It's pathetic. The US is at war, we need to start acting like it or we will end up with another Viet Nam, and we will end up losing. We can't afford to lose this war. We can't afford to let a nut job like the leader of Iran take control of Iraq, which is exactly what he's trying to do. He openly admits he wants to destroy Israel, the US and all of Western Civilization (and he needs Iraq to do it), yet people continually blame bush. Pathetic.



Even OBL openly claimed the terrorists need Iraq to succeed. Doesn't anybody pay attention to what the enemy says?

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Madclicker POW's don't get trials. Nor do they get released until the war is over, which in this case may be never.

That may be true but the Geneva Convention applies to POWs. As far as I understand it is not being applied to the current group of detainees.

[Rekd]

Originally Posted by Geof As far as I understand it is not being applied to the current group of detainees.

How so?

And don't forget this clause...

POW status also applies to captured members of irregular forces who are under responsible command; have a fixed distinctive sign (such as an insignia, uniform or other marking) recognizable at a distance; carry arms openly; and conduct their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

I don't think wearing a burka or murder apply.

[Geof]

I do not understand the 'How so?' question. The post I responded to was equating the (alleged) terrorist detainees to POWs. It is my understanding they do not have this status and therefore the strictures of the Geneva Convention do not apply.

I fail to understand the logic that would allow me to say because someone else behaves in a barbaric manner it is okay for me to behave in a barbaric manner; which is the logic that seems to be applied in the case of these detainees. I can think of three reasons for treating people, no matter what their alleged or real status, in a decent and humane manner; one is because it is the correct thing to do, another is because it degrades the one doling out the treatment and it is pointless. During the Korean and Vietnamese wars by all accounts captured US personnel were subjected to treatment that ranged from the equivalent of water boarding and sleep deprivation to much worse. Did anyone believe the confessions of the ones subjected to this did anyone think better of the perpetrators of the wrong treatment. The US and other countries are involved in a war on terror but this does not excuse emulating the behaviour of the other side even to the smallest degree. This, unfortunately, is the conundrum a humane society faces when confronted by terrorist acts; if you lower yourself to the level of your opponents you have lost the cause. I agree that probably many of the detainees cannot sensibly be released because they do pose a threat. Some of them probably pose more of a threat now as result of their treatment. Why is it not possible to simply confine them in a humane and diginified manner? It is questionable whether much information of value has been obtained by the treatment some have been subjected to. It is certain that the image of the US has suffered and some people who may have dithered have been pushed in the direction of extremism.

[Rekd]

I'm trying to figure out how/why you think the US is treating the terrorists barbarically. If you for one second believe the US is treating the terrorists the same way the terrorists are treating everyone else (who is not Islamic), then you're misguided. Sure, there may be a few exceptions, but those are treated with harsh punishment when they're found out.

Do me a favor, give me ONE example of how the US is acting barbaric like the terrorists are. Just one. (And not an example of a single soldier murdering someone, then getting 100 years in prison for it, which is how we are dealing with those individuals.)

Show me where the US has dragged a body through the streets, cut off a head, hidden behind women and children, hidden in schools, dressed as women to gain an advantage in an attack, attacked women and children on purpose repeatedly, etc etc etc.

Do you honestly believe the US is as barbaric as these terrorists? Do you honestly think we're "stooping to their level" ?? Then show me, because aside from the baseless rhetoric I've heard from the bush-bashers, we're not.

Also, that guy bragged about what he had done before being water-boarded.

[vacpress]

i always liked benny.

Originally Posted by ynneb ...in many ways we should also be more outraged about what we are doing to our fellow man. We sit back and allow our governments to torture people, invade other countries etc. We need to protest more. We need to write more letters to our politicians. The current Australian and American governments are a disgrace to humanity. I dont believe thier lies and propaganda. If the reason for invading Iraq was for humanity reasons, then why dont we also invade Zimbabwe and other such countries. The truth is its about oil, and we sit back and do nothing about the attorcities our goverments commit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2Xd0Q2Auz4

[vacpress]

dude.. dont you know anything about our government?

we live under a consitantly mean natured set of 'rulers'... cases in point:

-Iran Contra
-the entire 2nd iraq war
-Vietnam
-Watergate type crud
-the first Bush election
-how long it took us to get into WW2
-HOLDING ANYONE WITHOUT CHARGES!
-constant funding of guerilla groups that may help us make $ in small countries
-refusal to sign non proliferation treaty
-total undoing of UN and geneva convention work
-refusal to sign into international courts
-massive tax exemption for huge well-off companies that need no tax breaks
-refusal to court marshal higher officers, but total willingness to blame systematic torture on barely post-teens from the middle of america!!! this IS evil. if you do not see this as evil, you probably have horns and a bifrucated tounge.
-that whole thing where we like to fake terrorist attacks to use as an excuse to goto war for profit. (not saying it is the case in any specific instance, just that the US Govt. has documented their desire and ability to do so)
- The list goes on, dude.

man. people seem to think that if they ally themselves with the horrific brute that is the US govt, they can somehow gain some profits..

sadly, it is probably true.

Originally Posted by Rekd I'm trying to figure out how/why you think the US is treating the terrorists barbarically. If you for one second believe the US is treating the terrorists the same way the terrorists are treating everyone else (who is not Islamic), then you're misguided. Sure, there may be a few exceptions, but those are treated with harsh punishment when they're found out. Do me a favor, give me ONE example of how the US is acting barbaric like the terrorists are. Just one. (And not an example of a single soldier murdering someone, then getting 100 years in prison for it, which is how we are dealing with those individuals.) Show me where the US has dragged a body through the streets, cut off a head, hidden behind women and children, hidden in schools, dressed as women to gain an advantage in an attack, attacked women and children on purpose repeatedly, etc etc etc. Do you honestly believe the US is as barbaric as these terrorists? Do you honestly think we're "stooping to their level" ?? Then show me, because aside from the baseless rhetoric I've heard from the bush-bashers, we're not. Also, that guy bragged about what he had done before being water-boarded.