A convenient lie

[vacpress]

much of it is politics, but china not only admits to this issue, but has at least begun pretending to make moves to change some of this in the future. maybe you have read about their seemingly honest effort to avoid as much petroleum use for cars as possible?

'climate change, global warming' - this is a bit of a red herring. the issue is still political and economic as much as environmental. the cost of dealing with pollution is the real issue. sure the argument can be made about the higher energy costs comming back to consumers. however, much as i love anarchistic ideals, i also really enjoy the way market systems seem to really drive innovation when a roadblock is met.

for the record, the other night at the bar i recited quite a bit of the anti-gore information from reading posts here, to further the discussion we were having. everyone of my liberal\non political but obviousely not conservative friends agrees with one basic premise:al gore cannot be trusted, his grandstanding is transparent, this contest is a farce.

so. please, before anyone discredits a point of view on a complex subject based on prejudice, consider how much that weakens your own arguments.

about global warming ill say this,the earth was in an ace while back,of course its going to warm up and the ice melt,what you expect,these are natural cycles that we will not stop,are we contributing to it,yes,can we slow it down,maybe,but not if we are th only country,as far as selling out,we spend the most and do the most of any nation around the world,when theres a mess,we either clean it up or pay for in all the poor third world countries
china is the biggest destroyer of the enviorment,why dont you go over there and tell it to them,if you want to make the enviorment better,start there,but they would only shoot you,sad but true,we are mostly alone in the war to save the enviorment

[7446 Guy]

enjoy your oppinion.

of course i use the products. and i breathe pollution emitted based on credit 'purchased' from a state where they use hydro electric... there is some irony there.

i dont know about where you live, but here the utilities regularly get caught fixing rates, etc. keep bringing up 'global warming' all you want. that is only one issue. the larger issue is still pollution, the right to pollute, and what is really fair and legal.

your argument about volcanos is rediculous. consider what you are saying and how absurd that is. it is like saying some people steal, so stealing is not only appropriate and fine, but inevitable, and anyone who dosent steal is guilty. keep pretending to be happy and secure and invested with the oil economy.. it is sort of like being a nazi sympathizer.

california is a beautifull state. culturaly and aestheticaly.

I apologize for not clarifying my original point.

I don't believe WE are destroying the earth or capable of it. Are we putting up pollutants, yes, destroying? No.

My reason for volcanism is that more dangerous pollutants are put into our air that you and I breathe and water that you and I swim in.

The earth has it's own cleaning system, the theory that man's pollutants are causing a warming or cooling trend is "THEORY" too ridiculous to buy into. Like I said, one volcano eruption is more than man has put out in it's lifetime.

[vacpress]

I suppose you find a clearcut forest to be a sign of progress and business as usual.

(looks at feet, frowns sadly)

(walks away shaking head)...

I apologize for not clarifying my original point.

I don't believe WE are destroying the earth or capable of it. Are we putting up pollutants, yes, destroying? No.

My reason for volcanism is that more dangerous pollutants are put into our air that you and I breathe and water that you and I swim in.

The earth has it's own cleaning system, the theory that man's pollutants are causing a warming or cooling trend is "THEORY" too ridiculous to buy into. Like I said, one volcano eruption is more than man has put out in it's lifetime.

[Geof]

so. please, before anyone discredits a point of view on a complex subject based on prejudice, consider how much that weakens your own arguments.

This could also apply to using the phrase: "it is sort of like being a nazi sympathizer.". You discredit yourself and weaken your own arguments.

[vacpress]

i am not the one suggesting that it ok to do something harmful and avoidable because volcanos do it.

the thought was incomplete. it is like being an american company supplying the nazis previous to our official involvment in the war.. i sure dont want to open an argument over why US joined WW2 when and for what... but it is the same sort of mindset..

i would call it machivellian, but really it is just greedy. i suppose this guy would fancy himself machivellian if he was inclined to think in such terms.

This could also apply to using the phrase: "it is sort of like being a nazi sympathizer.". You discredit yourself and weaken your own arguments.

[flyboy1015]

Has anyone bothered to read the recent report on "Global Warming?" The most important measurement in the whole equation is how much energy is the sun sending to the Earth? The equipment to measure that is only about 10 years old and the accuracy is questionable. Because of this, the scientific community has considered the sun to be a CONSTANT SOURCE. This is wrong!! Currently, Mars is losing its polar ice caps to a greater degree than what it had in the past. What does this tell us? The sun has been ejecting more energy in recent history and it is affecting more than just our planet. "Global Warming" isn't caused by man, it's a natural occurrence. How much time do we have recorded of the Earth's history? We don't have a statistically significant amount of data to make any kind of predictions. How then, can we claim to know what is going on with the environment? Does anyone remember 30 years ago when we were headed for another ice age? They don't know what's going on. How can they claim to know now?

[vacpress]

has anybody stopped asking if 'global warming' exists, and started asking 'why do we care more for the red herring than the actual issue?'

[vacpress]

also.. the only person here who seems to make claims with any sensible limits seems to be geof and his comments in this thread are less than useful..

try and seperate your political belief from your economic interests and then again from your stated oppinions on the debate over climate change...

these are not compatible issues if you want to 'be right', which clearly you do.. surely being 'reasonable' holds some appeal?

why argue in favor of a huge industry full of spooky rich men who were allready rich on their first day of life and really do 'stick it to us'.

maan.. it makes my sticking up for microsoft look like a noble cause..

[7446 Guy]

I suppose you find a clearcut forest to be a sign of progress and business as usual.

(looks at feet, frowns sadly)

(walks away shaking head)...

Did you know that there are more trees in the US than there ever was when the Euro's arrived?

[vacpress]

do you know your statements have no references and dont really mean anything in and of themselves?

so far you told us that volcanos make it ok to pollute, 'tree huggers' damage your business, and 'there are more trees now than before'

somehow i find the last idea specifically difficult.. but then, what do i know about the conversion of farmland from forest? the cutting of alaskan timber?

almost nothing, so i wont assume anything, just, you know, good luck fighting off the green menace..

Did you know that there are more trees in the US than there ever was when the Euro's arrived?

[Geof]

Did you know that there are more trees in the US than there ever was when the Euro's arrived?

What evidence do you have to support this?

[7446 Guy]

do you know your statements have no references and dont really mean anything in and of themselves?

so far you told us that volcanos make it ok to pollute, 'tree huggers' damage your business, and 'there are more trees now than before'

somehow i find the last idea specifically difficult.. but then, what do i know about the conversion of farmland from forest? the cutting of alaskan timber?

almost nothing, so i wont assume anything, just, you know, good luck fighting off the green menace..

When I get some time I promise you, I will re-research a url statistic and give a ref from a government website which I read (Dept of Forestry RE: Tree population for more hugging ) after debating a much similar thread in another forum.

Tree huggers / greenies interfere with my occupation in the form of making uneducated decisions on incadescent lighting as well as mercury filled illumination, but that's another topic. But as always we get what we vote for, right?