Did I miss something??

[braidmeister]

My summation: The common man has abused his freedom, he can't be trusted with it, he needs to be controlled before he blows up the world with his unrestrained production and consumption. If you can't stand over him with a gun to control his activities, tax and ration his carbon use. He won't understand what that really means until it is too late.

Speak for yourself. There are many of us that are not part of your little scenario...I'll take EVERY DROP of my sovereignty, thank you very much.

The PROBLEM is corporation & government. NOT US!!!! If you want to do something about pollution and being responsible, try shutting down stupid wastes of energy like the space shuttle et al, that spew TONS of pollution into our atmosphere...and for what? Not your butt, nor mine (or ANYONE YOU PERSONALLY KNOW) will EVER be going on any space trip....but they will sure let you pay for it. How about all of the munitions exploded EVERY DAY? Aside from killing PEOPLE directly, it is killing the environment.

I agree with John that 'global warming' is not proven. It's yet another buzz phrase to scare the sheeple. If you travelled the world and went to just about ANY country and met the common folk there, you would QUICKLY come to the realization that people are people...that it isn't US & THEM...and that people are generally good & hard working. You can't take a country's FORCED policy and say that 'we the people' voted for it and we all agree. If you think that a president is actually voted into office, then I guess I can understand that type of perspective...BTW, there is no Easter Bunny in real life...and if you think that any human on this planet is 'free', you're living in fantasy land.

Every creature under the sun knows what is RIGHT & WRONG. Period. I believe that the majority of people will do the right thing if given an honest way to do it. Touting that pollution from cars is causing global warming & pollution is getting out of control is RUBBISH. The environment is MUCH cleaner than it was 20 yrs ago. THAT is a FACT!!! The people have been doing their best, it's GOVERNMENT & COMMERCIAL entities that grease each other's palms, look the other way, and spew FAR MORE crap into the environment than anyone else!

The earth is a living thing (as Carlin so eloquently pointed out) and it will flush all of us out of existence if it has to. And..what if it did? We are all going to die sooner or later. Get over it. Is this the BIG FEAR that has people all upset? Worried about dying? As if the human race is the crown jewel in the universe? LOL!!!! Those who believe that, have some soul searching to do...

-B

[Jay C]

Question: Why do Ford and GM continue to pump out less efficient vehicles in a time where fuel prices are at an all time high? Toyota and Honda are killing them in sales.

Why did we really invade Iraq?

Would it really be that bad to produce less polluting cars that comply with an agreement everyone else in the world (save Australia and US) signed? Who would lose? Why?

These are questions I have but haven't researched. Why, because there are more interesting things like my family, CNC, robotics, and Krav Maga. again I guess it all comes down to who you trust.

FWIW,
Jay

[braidmeister]

Originally Posted by Jay C Did anyone else watch An inconvenient Truth? You guys are talking as if this is a normal state for our climate. Did the 650,000 year chart of carbon dioxide levels not show otherwise? What about the numerous 30-year before and after satellite photos. Is there a global warming trend? No doubt in this man's mind yes. Now, are we causing it? We as in human industry. Well, did we cause the hole in the ozone layer? Did banning CFC's fix it? I'm told we did, and and I'm told it did. But I can't become an expert on what causes things. I have to trust what I'm told and I do that with sources I trust. It is my opinion that Al Gore presented data that shows the last 30 years show a marked increase in CO2 levels and a historical correlation of rising temperatures. Do I believe the individual has to do something. I do personally yes. I'm not going to get into a debate as these are my views based on what I have learned from sources I trust. I don't plan to say "oh hell I guess I'm wrong and I'm wasting my time recycling, buying a more fuel efficient car, turning off unused lamps, changing to CFL's, and donating monies to environmental causes and buying green power." I tend to err on the side of caution. I would say that even if your not driven to do something to make a difference in CO2 levels for the environment, do something for your wallet. It is a fact that you can save money by switching to CFLs in your home. Walmart changed all of the lamps in their ceiling fans in their stores and quoted a large (I want to say $1 Billion but I can't recall for sure ... it was an article in Business 2.0) in energy costs. My recent trip to Lowes confirms they are a believer too. Buy at the warehouse stores for bigger savings too. See my next post for some on my questions. Jay

Jay,
We haven't been recording data on this rock long enough to know ANYTHING about the complexities of the earth's climate. Period. 200 years of data on record (eye witness) and who knows HOW they can 100% for sure verify that radio carbon dating or measuring CO2 levels from a core sample is accurate. What's the reference? Just cause they say so?

Retail stores that 'embrace green' have done some good in the world. But the primary reason that they do all of these green things is nothing more than window dressing & PR stunts. It's like advertising that you did what you were supposed to be doing right in the 1st place and expecting a trophy or kudos for it...

Ozone? Styrofoam? Yeah OK...try doing some research into HAARP...and then tell me THAT hasn't cooked the entire earth's atmosphere...If you buy the styrofoam story, that's like buying the green monkey AIDS story...

-B

[fizzissist]

I put "An Inconvenient Truth" right up there with the classics, like Peter Pan and Rug Rats, the Movie.

Jay C, to address your points...

Wally World, UltraK, and all the other super stores providing you with your energy efficient products....care to look where they're made??? Hmmmmm......let me guess....China?

A country with NO environmental standards or consciousness. Need to get rid of that bucket of mercury or spent toluene? Dump it in the yard out back. Oops, it's time to smog the company cars! NOT!!

You're getting your 'cheap' products from places that are polluting more than you're saving, and YOU'RE the bad guy, according to AlGore. Better yet, you just saved yourself out of a job. Not to mention the environmental impacts of the shipping alone.

I just flew over the seas of southeast asia, and the number of container ships I saw was brain numbing. All that stuff for you to save money on, produced in countries with no pollution standards. And we're the bad guys.

Why didn't we sign Kyoto? Because it wasn't fair and didn't result in a level playing field.

Why don't we all drive energy efficient vehicles? Good question. Why don't you ask Honda why I can't buy a Honda Wave (AKA Innova, NF) in this country. They build 'em in Viet Nam with a base price of about $770, and sell 'em in Thailand for around $1200. That same bike is over $3600 in the UK.
Can't buy 'em in the US.

Why did we invade Iraq? To ensure there's oil to fire the electricity for the power to give you internet access.

Every time you start your car, no matter what you drive, you're the reason we invaded Iraq.

[Jay C]

Ozone? Styrofoam? Yeah OK...try doing some research into HAARP...and then tell me THAT hasn't cooked the entire earth's atmosphere...If you buy the styrofoam story, that's like buying the green monkey AIDS story... -B

Yeah, wasn't going to mention HAARP ... might sound to conspiracy theorist

[fizzissist]

Couldn't pass up posting this....

Hypocrisy of the Stars
http://www.tmz.com/2006/10/18/celebs...but-guzzle-gas

[braidmeister]

Originally Posted by Jay C Yeah, wasn't going to mention HAARP ... might sound to conspiracy theorist

Thing is, there are no conspiracy theories...only conspiracies

-B

[ViperTX]

Originally Posted by CNCadmin Let me answer that for ya....IT'S MY SITE AND I CAN DO AND SAY WHAT EVERY I WANT ...hope that helps.

Well that tells me alot about you, Paul.....let me flush the commode. *kerflush*

[NinerSevenTango]

Random thoughts on the above:

Back to toothbrush wrappers, if it weren't against the law, you could burn them and use the heat to heat your house.

The reason why free men would get together to form a government that has a monopoly on the use of force can be found in the American Declaration of Independence.

Re carbon dioxide and warming -- the warming came before the carbon dioxide in this century. Cause and effect? That's a tough one.

Ozone holes -- remember when NASA claimed there was an ozone hole over Kennebunkport, Maine? CFC's are used as refrigerants because the chemical is one of the most inert chemicals ever produced by man. So inert, that it makes a superior fire extinguisher. Supposedly, the molecule breaks up from an ultraviolet photon, releasing chlorine, which then reacts with an ozone molecule. These molecules can get from your hair spray can into the upper atmosphere and cause everyone to die of skin cancer. Now the whole thing is a pretty nice theory, even though a lot of the basics are a huge stretch of the imagination. What wasn't imaginary, however, was that right about the time of all this fanciful hullabaloo, Mt. Pinatubo was spewing huge amounts of hydrogen chloride into the stratosphere. Which of course is denied by the CFC crowd as not possibly having anything to do with atmospheric chlorine levels, despite the tremendous amounts released. And certainly, it can't react with oxygen radicals, like the almost inert CFC's do. Even if there are huge amounts of it getting blown sky high, it can't get into the upper stratosphere like your hair spray does. Ever notice how the replacement for freon is a chemical cousin, but somehow isn't supposed to be harmful, and it costs a lot more? It was not a little surprising to discover that just when patent protection was running out on Freon, DuPont was funding the groups that were pushing the loudest for a ban on it. Then lo and behold, a newly patented compound! Whaddaya know!

Re My Summation -- I was sarcastically putting words in the statists' mouths. I have the feeling that if they successfully disarm the population, they will get their way. And then, pollution won't be the big social issue...

Re an agreement everyone else in the world (save Australia and US) signed -- It would require us to regulate and tax our industries right out of existence. The government doesn't want to do that too fast, because it would make revenues fall. Of course the tinpot dictators around the world would love to deny us our energy, which is the engine of our civilization. If it hurts America, just show them where to sign up. Let's see how many of them actually cut their own carbon use in the long run. No matter that the whole thing is built on a pack of lies. Make it sound scientific, and the unwashed masses will buy it, is the theory. Which seems to be working. I wonder whether coming in at the bottom of the list in math and science scores will ever have any important effects on our nation?

I like the idea of HAARP -- it reinforces the idea that the earth's weather is precariously unstable, subject to runaway influences of positive feedback mechanisms, and moreover, can be controlled by a mad scientist cackling gleefully as he pulls his lever to launch his diabolical plan to control the world. Too bad none of the physics for the story work out. But I like the story.

Re Flushing -- I hope we are not taking advantage of our gracious host here. I really like the entire website and the people on it. I'm sorry we might not agree on this subject in particular, but the give and take is fun. And it might be worthwhile, as well as therapeutic. Hopefully people will read some of the links and decide for themselves. If all you had to go by were newspapers and TV news, there wouldn't be any chance to see the real data for yourself in order to make your own decision. I give my thanks for the forum and I hope I've not worn out my welcome. I came here looking for information on mills, found out about Tormach here, and I bought one along with a copy of Artsoft Mach Mill. I do support the advertisers with real money.

--97T--

[Geof]

Originally Posted by NinerSevenTango ...Ozone holes .... Supposedly, the molecule breaks up from an ultraviolet photon, releasing chlorine, which then reacts with an ozone molecule. These molecules can get from your hair spray can into the upper atmosphere and cause everyone to die of skin cancer. Now the whole thing is a pretty nice theory, even though a lot of the basics are a huge stretch of the imagination......

97T you may know a lot of things but clearly a good knowledge of chemistry is not one of them. You are ranting on here, incorrectly, like the best of the conspiracy theorists. The link between CFCs, ozone, the ozone hole and increased UV levels at higher latitudes especially is real. It is a display of ignorance to deny it or if you do have the background in chemistry to understand it then the display is not something excusable.

[NinerSevenTango]

Geof, I don't have the background in chemistry. But I'll be happy to look at the proof. Got a link?

--97T--

[Geof]

Originally Posted by NinerSevenTango Geof, I don't have the background in chemistry. But I'll be happy to look at the proof. Got a link? --97T--

No, just nine years at university studying chemistry ending in a doctorate degree.