What will happen to the oil companies

[Al_The_Man]

....and the countries that rely on them!
Not sure if this has been posted before?
GM Hy-Wire "Car of the Future"
Al.

[TarHeelTom]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Man ....and the countries that rely on them! Not sure if this has been posted before? GM Hy-Wire "Car of the Future" Al.

This cars consumes hydrogen. One thing they don't point out is the the energy density of hydrogen is much less than that of gasoline. This car MIGHT travel 100 miles on a full tank.

Someone, probably the oil companies, is going to have to manufacture hydrogen in large quantities, pipe it, then truck it to local stations. The station will have to have a large paved area to accommodate cars, and pumps and meters and fueling hoses to add hydrogen to the cars. Gee, that sounds a lot like a modern filling station, doesn't it!

I suspect (but don't know) that there is no economy of scale in operating huge hydrogen "distilleries", so there will probably be a plant near every major city and most large towns, and quite possibly located near each nuclear power plant. The hydrogen plant is a good neighbor for a nuke plant, as the nuke plant really needs to run at 100% output 24/7/12. The hydrogen plant can utilize the excess electrical power whenever it is available.

I therefore predict that the oil companies will become energy companies serving the same customers they are now serving, but with a slightly different product.

By the way, the "no pedals" won't make it to the final product, as we will always need a way to brake when the last bit of electricity has been produced and the hydrogen tank is empty. But still a neat concept car.


Tom

[Ark1]

With all that thinking.

First off Hydrogen does not occur naturally anywhere on the planet.

Next Hydrogen and Oxgen bonds in water are very strong.

Meaning, it takes 4 times the energy that you get out of hydrogen to liberate it from water and that is where the whole thing falls apart.

Until the price of oil or gas equal the price of liberated hydrogen, the concept is going nowhere.

Maybe in time newer technologies will get past this, but currently, we aren't there.

Ark!

[TarHeelTom]

Originally Posted by Ark1 Until the price of oil or gas equal the price of liberated hydrogen, the concept is going nowhere. Ark!

I read recently that China bought more new cars in 2010 than we did in the US. China is building "Interstate" highways at a tremendous rate. (These highways are almost an exact duplicate of our Interstate system.) China is therefore becoming very thirsty for gas and oil.

For this one reason alone, it appears that the price of oil will increase rapidly in the near future.

Your condition may come true a lot sooner than you think.

We need to continue working forward on many different alternative energy sources now, as it is really hard to predict with any certainty which of those sources will be the most economical and practical in the future. One never knows in advance what small breakthrough will tilt the balance drastically in the future.

Perhaps some high school or college student will discover that in the presence of a certain chemical compound hydrogen can be produced at only 10% of your stated figure.

Go back and watch the movie "Back to the Future" again. While that was Sci-Fi, things like that tend to come true. Breakthroughs happen often.

Not many years ago an overseas airliner had to carry 3 separate navigation systems, costing about $35,000 per system, for the cheapest system. These particular systems worked very very well, but had to be powered continuously, as lose power for a couple of seconds, and the system forgot where it was, and could NOT relocate itself. There were several different similar systems in use, and they all suffered from the lack of the ability to find themselves from scratch.

Then, all of a sudden, pilots started carrying their own portable GPS receivers in their flight cases. These things cost only about $300 each, and could find themselves in under two minutes after turning on the power.

One small change made all the difference in price. The early systems required a very accurate clock to be carried in the aircraft. Cesium (atomic) clocks were used, and they were expensive. The GPS system moved the atomic clock from the aircraft to the satellite, requiring only 24 clocks total, instead of three in each aircraft.

Now you can buy a good GPS receiver for $300 or less, but also get a GPS receiver in almost every cell phone, as well as in many cars, etc etc etc.

You can buy a small yellow box called a "Spot", which contains a GPS receiver and a cell phone transmitter. When asked to do so, the Spot transmits your position every 30 minutes and your backup team (wife, employer, or whoever) can watch your progress on the internet. The Spot costs only about $100, and will run several days on a battery.

Technology is moving fast. You can't depend on the status quo remaining the status quo forever.

Tom

[Ark1]

We can liberate hydrogen for less than the price of oil, still not going to happen.

At the current demand of consumption the Alberta Oil sands has a 300 year supply of oil. I don't think I will see hydrogen powered cars in my life time and I am 55.

Ark1.

[fizzissist]

The future of energy is not what you think it is

"Are we living at the beginning of the Age of Fossil Fuels, not its final decades? The very thought goes against everything that politicians and the educated public have been taught to believe in the past generation. According to the conventional wisdom, the U.S. and other industrial nations must undertake a rapid and expensive transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy for three reasons: The imminent depletion of fossil fuels, national security and the danger of global warming.

What if the conventional wisdom about the energy future of America and the world has been completely wrong?...."

..."In 2010 a Cornell University ecology professor and anti-fracking activist named Robert Howarth published a paper making the sensational claim that natural gas is a greater threat to the climate than coal. Howarth admitted, "A lot of the data we use are really low quality..."
Everything you've heard about fossil fuels may be wrong - War Room - Salon.com

[Eurisko]

Hydrogen production doesn't require huge sprawling facilities. It can be produced on site at refueling stations...

DOE Permitting Hydrogen Facilities: On-Site Hydrogen Production

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Eurisko Hydrogen production doesn't require huge sprawling facilities. It can be produced on site at refueling stations... DOE Permitting Hydrogen Facilities: On-Site Hydrogen Production

The ridiculous aspect about reforming natural gas to produce hydrogen is that it is energetically more efficient to run an automobile engine directly on the natural gas. In addition internal combustion engines are far far cheaper than fuel cells.

[fizzissist]

Originally Posted by Eurisko Hydrogen production doesn't require huge sprawling facilities. It can be produced on site at refueling stations... DOE Permitting Hydrogen Facilities: On-Site Hydrogen Production

Uh huh. Sure. With a cute little windmill on top of each pump generating the hydrogen, compressing it, and pumping it into the cute little cars that line up for a refill.

Doesn't anyone recognize that to create a hydrogen fuel it takes a lot of energy? What I'd love to see is hydrogen refueling stations each with their own diesel generator running the conversion. Better yet, like Geoff says.......convert the hydrogen using natural gas.

Ignore that man behind the curtain with the efficiency losses!

[Eurisko]

Originally Posted by Geof The ridiculous aspect about reforming natural gas to produce hydrogen is that it is energetically more efficient to run an automobile engine directly on the natural gas. In addition internal combustion engines are far far cheaper than fuel cells.

Very true, Geof. But with the increased demand for oil & gas, we may start getting serious about alternative fuels. Probably when gas sells for upwards of $10.00 a gallon. At those prices, a cheap combustion engine will be too expensive to run

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Eurisko Very true, Geof. But with the increased demand for oil & gas, we may start getting serious about alternative fuels. Probably when gas sells for upwards of $10.00 a gallon. At those prices, a cheap combustion engine will be too expensive to run

Your logic escapes me. It does not matter what the cost of gasoline is, it will always be more energetically efficient to use natural gas directly as a fuel rather than reform it to hydrogen.

[Eurisko]

Originally Posted by Geof Your logic escapes me. It does not matter what the cost of gasoline is, it will always be more energetically efficient to use natural gas directly as a fuel rather than reform it to hydrogen.

But, natural gas is also a limited resource! Natural gas prices will skyrocket too! Hydrogen can be produced using renewable energy sources (solar, wind, geothermal), through electrolysis of water. It is not the efficiency of the conversion that matters, it is the final cost of the fuel that is being used. If hydrogen can be produced cheaply enough (without using natural gas in the conversion) it may just be "the fuel of the future".

Of course, we may all have "Mister Fusion" home energy appliances by then...