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    Default Did I miss something??

    How in the world is "global warming" at all related to CNC?
    Sure, sometimes members want to talk about things other than CNC, but isn't that what areas like the Club House are for?

    I could remotely see, that if global warming was a re-occurring or hot topic among the members here, that this area would be created for an open exchange of information and ideas, but the title: "Stop Global Warming Discussion Forum" already denotes a bias opinion that Global warming exists and should be stopped.

    Did I miss something?
    Colin

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    I thought it was kind of strange myslef.



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    Member dertsap's Avatar
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    actually cnc manufacturing has a large impact on the environment , the impact that mining has is substantial , something we as machinists and consumers need , as a whole cnc metal working machines hold a large amount of coolant ,and consume large amounts of lube oils , the fact they call the coolants environmentally friendly is a joke , someone should see the shrubs around our chip dumpster
    where do these oils and coolants go after guys are done mopping the floors ,

    then we get back to recycling the scrap material which is a green idea but is it ,its another dirty process
    most companies are honest but what is the impact of the one that aren't


    plus the key factor to the new forum is the man who owns the site wants it



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    plus the key factor to the new forum is the man who owns the site wants it[/QUOTE]

    Q: who does the company owner turn his vacation request in to?
    A: no one.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

    "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
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    Registered cncadmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nicad View Post
    How in the world is "global warming" at all related to CNC?
    Sure, sometimes members want to talk about things other than CNC, but isn't that what areas like the Club House are for?

    I could remotely see, that if global warming was a re-occurring or hot topic among the members here, that this area would be created for an open exchange of information and ideas, but the title: "Stop Global Warming Discussion Forum" already denotes a bias opinion that Global warming exists and should be stopped.

    Did I miss something?
    Colin

    Let me answer that for ya....IT'S MY SITE AND I CAN DO AND SAY WHAT EVERY I WANT ...hope that helps.

    Thank You,
    Paul G

    Check out-
    [URL="http://www.signs101.com"]www.signs101.com[/URL]


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    Registered cncadmin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dertsap View Post
    actually cnc manufacturing has a large impact on the environment , the impact that mining has is substantial , something we as machinists and consumers need , as a whole cnc metal working machines hold a large amount of coolant ,and consume large amounts of lube oils , the fact they call the coolants environmentally friendly is a joke , someone should see the shrubs around our chip dumpster
    where do these oils and coolants go after guys are done mopping the floors ,

    then we get back to recycling the scrap material which is a green idea but is it ,its another dirty process
    most companies are honest but what is the impact of the one that aren't


    plus the key factor to the new forum is the man who owns the site wants it

    Excellent points!

    Thank You,
    Paul G

    Check out-
    [URL="http://www.signs101.com"]www.signs101.com[/URL]


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    Registered ImanCarrot's Avatar
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    As an aside.. I used to work at a large Defence company here in the UK. Well, with all the legislation concerning environmental stuff they brought in ISO14000 which means you have to (as much as possible) produce your product with minimal environmental impact.

    We made missiles... environmentaly friendly missiles? I thought they were meant to blow the blinking environment up!



    I love deadlines- I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.


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    Registered massajamesb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNCadmin View Post
    Let me answer that for ya....IT'S MY SITE AND I CAN DO AND SAY WHAT EVERY I WANT ...hope that helps.
    Did I miss something??-rotflmao-gif


    Did I miss something??-popcorn-gif

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

    "If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
    -RedGreen show.


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    Quote Originally Posted by nicad View Post
    ...already denotes a bias opinion that Global warming exists and should be stopped.

    Did I miss something?

    Apparently so.



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    Quote Originally Posted by CNCadmin View Post
    Let me answer that for ya....IT'S MY SITE AND I CAN DO AND SAY WHAT EVERY I WANT ...hope that helps.
    Thanks for clearing it up. :rainfro:



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    Default Global warming is a BAD joke!

    Global Warming...... ask the people in the mid west that just got slammed by one of the worse ice storms in their recent history.... ask them where global warming is when you need it! And just for the uninformed the planet has been steadily warming since um..... I don't know..... hmmmm......THE LAST ICE AGE. Liberal yee-haws. Stick to what you seem to know best. CNC machines

    Respectfully,

    John

    P.S if anyone wants to have an informed debate about the topic, I will be more than willing to wax that butt both factually and philosophically.

    Last edited by b4500@dtcc.edu; 01-25-2007 at 11:37 AM.


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    I live in the Midwest. And let me tell you, winter took a long time to get here. I wasn't even close to having a White Christmas. It was depressing almost, how warm it was for a while. Mentioning single examples of outlying weather is bunk (and manipulative and irritating too), and it goes against what the definition of a "climate" really is - an average. Even besides that, "global warming" is a broad statement for what really adds up to "climate change." Some parts might warm, some parts might cool, but generally, we're changing our environment way too quickly, with some ruinous effects (e.g. ecosystems). The uncertainty of what's going to happen is really the worst part.

    After using my father's TAIG MicroMill to make countless circuit boards for power electronics designs, I decided to build my own custom CNC mill for less money than one could be bought. I used threaded rod from Home Depot coupled with rollerblade bearings and angle brackets held together with JB-Weld, $5 surplus stepper motors, and my own custom control box. I used no plans - everything was totally from scratch, with no help from anyone. It isn't completed yet, but I've got one-axis movement right now, and plan to finish it sometime soon. It's not super-accurate but it's what I need for PCBs.

    What would I use these PCBs for, you ask? I'm building an AC induction motor controller for my grandfather's electric car. [My grandfather helped restore Mrs. Henry Ford's personal electric car for the Henry Ford Museum.] It's currently been a six-year project, and the car does run right now, but I need to make some further improvements in the electronics (a multilevel converter if any of you has any clue what that means).

    http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/lab.html
    http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/pcbdev.html

    I also used my great-grandfather's lathe to machine some other parts:
    http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/mech.html

    Obviously, I find EVs a fun hobby. But my convictions to renewable energy are very strong. I try to be a logical person (my mind is technical, as you can tell), and I also have learned, through my renewable energy interest, to see past the cover some individuals put up to confuse or manipulate me.

    I have no doubt human-activity-induced global warming is occuring right now - in fact I don't see how it could be avoided given the huge amount of greenhouse gases we're emitting. We're just putting the earth back to the way it was to begin with - hot and with a thick atmosphere (read uninhabitable). Having 2005 be the warmest year on record (almost tied with 1998) frightens me. The second link below says, "Astonishingly, every single year since 1992 is in the current list of the 20 warmest years on record." There is just no way this is due to something random, and no large volcanoes have gone off recently either. I don't see how this could be more obvious; I really don't. Being a jerk about it and denying it doesn't make you any smarter - researching it might. I personally don't get too much pleasure from having power to say whatever I want, no matter how ridiculous, on "my own forum," but if some people do, I guess that's fine (though irresponsible at best). I do like to share my ideas and successes when they're backed with a lot of hard scientific research and hands-on development.

    http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming...dtemp2005.html
    http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming...gerprints.html

    In addition to my personal EV hobby, and also building a DC motor controller for someone else as a semi-open-source project, I'm the president of the Michigan State University Solar Car Team. On Thursday we're planning to inherit the GM EV1 from the University's storage facility. I personally plan to restore the car's electronics and get it to run. Lots of students are excited about this - it's a very positive experience, and the wave of the future (as we're quickly running out of oil, since we're so wasteful with it). This is between my other duties as a Master's EE candidate; I graduated BSEE with high honors last May.

    One of my publications towards my BSEE, in case you still doubt my logical ability:
    http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/appnote3.pdf
    [I was recommended by one of the vice presidents of Texas Instruments to work a consulting job that pays nearly $50/hour. Still think I'm not logical about global warming?]

    - Arthur Matteson



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    Member dertsap's Avatar
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    look at stuff like pcb's , man made , can t get rid of it , insinerate it and the dioxide is worse than the product to begin with
    pcb doesn t break down
    animals were tested in the antarctic practacally untouched by man , the animals have high levels of pcb in their bodies (try testing average joe)
    i saw a program where scientists are working to produce a type of molecule that will attack and destroy pcb's ,wonder how thats going to turn out



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    Default The "logical" approach to global warming

    Where on this earth is incontrovertible proof that WE (humans) are causing "global warming" or climate change?

    I am going to take this apart piece by piece for you.

    What we can agree on?

    1.) Climate change is most definitively a more accurate term. I merely used the nomenclature previously specified in the forum title.

    2.) Recent history (20 years or so) have been warmer than say the previous 20 years. (In areas where temperature has been recorded)

    3.) A non-polluting, plentiful, renewable energy source would be ideal and should be researched. (But as with all research, there may not be a realistic tangible success based on current levels of technology and the lack of funding for said research, that said, I encourage everyone to try)

    What do I take issue with?

    1.) The website, you cite, has an agenda. The article does use good sources; however, they use a narrow scope of focus to make a broad claim.

    2.) The relevance of your education (not barring a degree with practical experience in environmental science), the amount of money you "could" make(absurd by the way, if you knew my hourly contract rate) and the ability to write an engineering paper (I must admit I didn’t read) has no bearing on your ability or qualifications to debate this issue. I personally don't care if you are a rocket scientist. Stick to the facts and only the facts and we will get along famously.

    3.) Lack of continuity and focus:
    In order to keep this debate focused (global warming and or climate change); please refrain from going off on tangents (e.g. hobbies, non-relevant publications, general ranting, etc.).

    It also makes an easier read with less fluff to sort through.

    4.) Making the following statement;

    "I have no doubt human-activity-induced global warming is occurring right now - in fact I don't see how it could be avoided given the huge amount of greenhouse gases we're emitting."

    This is a whopper! Let me introduce you "to my little friend" doubt!

    I am going to ask you read this page. I am going to preface this article by telling you, that what you are going to read was generated by an agenda driven group, however, the article is well written and sites scientific journals and leading scientists, and I couldn't say it any better than they do (with out considerable effort). I am only asking that you take under consideration the facts of the article; not the conclusions drawn.

    http://bruderheim-rea.ca/warming6.htm

    If this does not blow a huge hole in your rhetoric, please let me know and I will be happy to provide more facts to do so.

    5.) "...I also have learned, through my renewable energy interest, to see past the cover some individuals put up to confuse or manipulate me."

    Facts are not confusing. The only cover being put up here is in your head. I am not trying to manipulate you. It is not a big conspiracy. Now look at my pocket watch... your getting sleepy.... global warming does not exist..... When you awake you will be a Liberal Environmental Wacko.... oh damn too late.

    "A bit of levity never hurt any debate." This is a direct quote from the guy being a Jerk.

    To Arthur,
    I sincerely wish you well. It sounds like you are involved in many wonderful things and I hope they bring you joy. My objective is that this debate will be informative, and if at the conclusion you still hold your misguided views, so be it. I will respectfully agree to disagree. All I ask is that you keep an open mind and focus on the facts, even when these facts are directly in opposition to your beliefs.

    To all others,
    It is obvious that Arthur is an educated and logical person, however, I would like to point out that even logical and learned people are susceptible to propaganda. Understand that Arthur and I probably are not too far off from one another ideologically (so far). We just disagree on what is fact and what is fiction.

    There is no shame in admitting; the world is round and that the sun is the center of our solar system. Sooner or later the truth will emerge. I hope this debate will help you find your truth.

    John


    Last edited by b4500@dtcc.edu; 01-25-2007 at 11:40 AM.


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    Registered fizzissist's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link, I'll add it to my list of "Evil Big Oil" (EBO) URLs. .... Along with my list of "Humans Are Killing The Penguins" URLs.

    There's a couple of points you make that I think are really critical to keep in mind, and one of those is agenda. It's clear that EBO's agenda is to ensure continued growth and sales. Since I wanna drive my Hummer that drags along a boat, 4 ATVs, and a pair of dirt bikes (all of which spew GHGs in spades), I'll go along with that agenda with a smile.

    Arthur here, bless his heart, is actively working to change the planet and protect us from ourselves. His agenda is noble.

    But what of Al Gore's agenda? And Michael Mann and James Hansen?? AlGore flies all over the world to teach us we shouldn't fly all over the world spewing CO2!! Me thinks there's agendas on the other side of the equation.

    One agenda, as I've posted in the sibling thread here, is that of the insurance companies, in whose best interests it is to spread fear....and raise premiums. The more convinced we are of impending doom, the more they can charge. (I accept that there is a measure of validity to that from a practical standpoint)

    AlGore's agenda? Get elected on a platform that he's building?

    There's another agenda that's sneaking up on us very quietly, one that has a very simple and direct agenda, that of money. There's a new stock market in town, and it's called ''Carbon Credits".

    It won't fly without gubbmint regulation and mandates, and those won't happen unless we're all alarmed.

    All that notwithstanding, the question is still "is the earth warming?" It well may be. The climate is definitely changing on a global scale, but our climate is hardly in equilibrium, and never has been.

    Is it changing outside the range of 'normal' (if there is a norm) variability? Maybe, but the influence of human forcing is incredibly small given all the different and powerful factors at work.

    Some big Hollywood star says one thing, and some young unknown says another. Who's right? Same thing is happening in science right now. Mann and Hansen are claiming they're right, but there's a host of other scientists who are publishing, in peer reviewed journals, diametrically opposed conclusions.

    Arthur, keep doin' what you're doing. It's a good thing. John, keep showing that there's more to this than what makes a well produced movie and scares the crap out of everybody.

    Me? I'll shut up now.



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    Default A response to fizzissist

    Fizzi,
    Most if not all of what you say is true (I didn't fact check). We have no real understanding of the climate changes we are now experiencing. Is it normal? Are we in an upward cycle? What is "normal"? These are my points exactly.

    I become discouraged when educated and logical (let’s not forget logical, sheesh...) people say with conviction or state as fact, that we (evil humans) are responsible for climate change. The fact is there just isn't enough information to say definitively that we are responsible and it is absurd to state as much.

    Let’s pose a question to the masses;


    Who among us want to polute anything on our planet?

    Who among us is against clean, plentiful and renewable energy sources?

    Answer: No one!

    I don't want to discourage Arthur from his environmentally friendly pursuits. I would like to encourage them; however, let’s not run around spewing miss information in the process. Lets have an intelligent debate not one filled with rhetoric and bull poo.

    Incontrovertible fact:

    1.) There is not a significant body of research, (emphasis on NOT) that hands down, demonstrates that climate change is anything more than "NORMAL".

    I encourage scholars and scientists to continue the evaluation the global climate. We obviously don't know enough about it yet. But until then; drop the alarmist attitude and focus on being productive. For you Arthur that might be engineering the next generation electric car. For you Fizzi; it might be pointing out Al Gore (our beloved inventor of the Internet... Thank God for Al Gore!) is full of dog poo!


    I am looking forward to more stimulating debate.

    I am also taking contributions to fund my new, well produce movie to entertain the masses; Title? "Global Warming and you!" Why you don't necessarily have to buy a house on the coast of Florida to have beech front property.


    Respectfully,

    John



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    Well fizzissist nailed it by saying that even the mighty expert scientists come to opposing conclusions.
    Regarding global warming iam certainly a noob but in fact many history changing inventions were made by dilettants because most of the complex scientific issues are mostly bases on a simple idea and most simple ideas can be explained with complex scientific theories.

    And my theory about global warming is that i dont care if the pollution will be reduced because people believe in global warming or another theory, pollution is bad and thats not a theory, thats a fact.

    As i said iam not an expert regarding global warming but as i get it, the point of the bruderheim article is that they are saying that its not really getting warmer or at least that there is not enough proof but i didnt see one word about "global dimming".

    Global dimming more or less counters the effects of global warming. Dimming means that tiny particles (also caused by pollution!) in the atmosphere are reducing the ammount of sunrays reaching the earth, like a layer of fog.
    The scientists who came up with this theory also made experiments to prove it and they claim if the whole world would stop the pollution instantly we would experience a sudden (within weeks/months) jump in temperature and would be exposed to the real grade of our global warming.

    Nice scenario for a hollywood blockbuster.

    Well in this case the temperature charts and diagrams in that article would be immediately in need of a update.



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    I too don't believe the hype on global warming. You may want to listen to this wisconsin public radio show earlier this week that just seemed to make more sense to me then most of the other stuff coming at us.
    ----------------------------
    http://wpr.org/webcasting/audioarchi...y.cfm?Code=jca

    Tuesday
    1/23/2007
    8:00 AM
    Joy Cardin - 01/23C
    According to Joy Cardin's guest, global warming is a natural phenomenon that occurs approximately every 1500 years, and is not caused by human-emitted greenhouse gases.

    Guest: Dennis T. Avery, senior fellow, Hudson Institute. Co-author, "Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1500 Years" (Rowman & Littlefield)



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    Member dertsap's Avatar
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    i haven t totally bought into global warming either but we really are messing things up

    to more or less quote George Carlon the comedian ,

    what makes us so arrogant to think we can save the planet , the world is forever changing and replenishing itself , and it will be 100% again once it rids itself of us

    i think we are only helping our own demize



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    C'mon, Climate change is happening. Even if, say, personally, you would prefer to listen to Limbaugh and O'Reilly belaboring "liberal conspiracies" and quoting limited and highly questionable "research" funded by corporations to cast doubt over the findings of say, every scientist on the planet, it's getting harder and harder to do when even our decider-in-chief is mentioning climate change as a problem in the State of the Union address.

    This simply isn't a partisan issue. It's a fact. Now, HOW we react to it, and what needs to be done - if anything at all - or if we are even the cause of it, may be a partisan issue, but to say climate change just isn't happening at all is beyond stupid at this point.

    Now while liberals always have a problem getting thier head out of the clouds long enough to accomplish anything realistically practical whatsoever, it is even harder lately to get neo-cons to pull thier heads out of the sand and acknowledge any basic reality not pre-approved by thier political dogma. Especially self-apparent obvious realities, as then they require complex layers of conspiracy and jingoism to deny.

    Of course, this post won't actually accomplish anything, as the Ann Coulter worshippers just ignore any unapproved viewpoint as unamerican terroristic propaganda anyway.



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