Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?


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Thread: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

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    Default Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    I'm looking for some honest opinions. I represent someone who is exposed on a daily basis to an illegally operated milling operation in a residential neighborhood (the person's garage). The equipment being operated are a Haas Mini Mill 2, deburring stations, and various other equipment for the milling and further treatment of aluminum, titanium, copper, stainless steel and brass. This facility is being operated about 10-12 hours a day, 7 days a week.

    In addition to the noise (presumably the spindle noise), this person is also exposed to a constant, heavy industrial smell (lubricant?). The air outlet of the machining shop is about 3 feet from my clients bedroom window. In addition, my client reports a constant sound of short bursts of pressurized air, and ongoing cleaning operations (flushing buckets out with water) outdoors, letting the waste water sink into the ground.

    My questions are as follows:

    - What lubricant is this machinist likely using?
    - What are the dangers of breathing in these mists 12 hours a day, every day?
    - What else could be causing this odor? Deburring chemicals?
    - What other chemicals/hazardous substances are used in these types of operation?
    - What are the bursts of pressurized air? (cleaning of manufactured parts?)
    - What are the dangers of airborne particulate matter of aluminum, titanium, copper, stainless steel and brass?
    - What other waste products are involved in this type of shop that may be flushed out by this person into my client's yard / pose a risk of ground contamination?
    - Are there any precedents of lawsuits that anyone would be aware of?

    Thank you for your help. I realize I'm in the lions den here, but any honest opinions, no matter whether positive or negative, would be appreciated for us to build a case and assess the severity of the situation.

    Best regards,
    A.K.

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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    your best option, set up an illegal lathe shop :-)


    seriously, they can not poison you as you meaning..
    people don't pour coolant on yard..

    I believe only you can complain is noise.. if real noise is there..

    if yards are 1 acre or larger, then possible you don't hear more like cars are on the street making noise..


    the airborne stuff youre mentioning, almost not exist..
    when you sanding metal, example sanding a tolerance shaft, the metal particles, you call airborne, don't makes longer distance than a couple of inches..

    why would you sue someone, who try to make his own life to working?

    indeed you trying to stop him work, fihure out how you caould make him something that benefiting you..

    ================================================== ==========================

    you can test very simple way how long the airborne stuff can fly..

    grab a handful sand and let see if you drop in your garage behind closed door, will it travel to the neighbor?

    about odor...

    if you eating chicken, then you can produce odor.. :-)

    probably your neighbor wont smell that...

    its likely makes no sense at all..



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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    ^^ um, no.

    If their outlet is three feet from a bedroom window it's a bit different to being in a shed at the back of an acre property.

    Legalities aside, it's bloody rude.

    I don't know what the rules are over there but here in Western Australia I have to be very careful running my hobby rig.
    - Operating that kind of equipment in any commercial capacity in a residential zone = council fines and possible orders to remove the equipment or cease operation entirely.
    - Noise limits are quite specifically set out by the EPA. Levels, types of noise, duration and hours.
    - Chemical dumping, or even dumping of oily wash water, into the ground is an issue with the EPA.
    - Continual smell and airborne particulates are an annoyance. The EPA would deal with this if they were at dangerous levels, but you'd have to pay an enviro scientist / chemist to capture and analyse samples and have a lab sign and seal the report submitted to the EPA which showed the above legal limits and proved that those emissions were coming from the neighbour.

    Have they tried talking to the owner/resident and coming to some arrangement around timing and better ventilation etc?



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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Attorney51 View Post
    I'm looking for some honest opinions. I represent someone who is exposed on a daily basis to an illegally operated milling operation in a residential neighborhood (the person's garage). The equipment being operated are a Haas Mini Mill 2, deburring stations, and various other equipment for the milling and further treatment of aluminum, titanium, copper, stainless steel and brass. This facility is being operated about 10-12 hours a day, 7 days a week.

    In addition to the noise (presumably the spindle noise), this person is also exposed to a constant, heavy industrial smell (lubricant?). The air outlet of the machining shop is about 3 feet from my clients bedroom window. In addition, my client reports a constant sound of short bursts of pressurized air, and ongoing cleaning operations (flushing buckets out with water) outdoors, letting the waste water sink into the ground.

    My questions are as follows:

    - What lubricant is this machinist likely using?
    - What are the dangers of breathing in these mists 12 hours a day, every day?
    - What else could be causing this odor? Deburring chemicals?
    - What other chemicals/hazardous substances are used in these types of operation?
    - What are the bursts of pressurized air? (cleaning of manufactured parts?)
    - What are the dangers of airborne particulate matter of aluminum, titanium, copper, stainless steel and brass?
    - What other waste products are involved in this type of shop that may be flushed out by this person into my client's yard / pose a risk of ground contamination?
    - Are there any precedents of lawsuits that anyone would be aware of?

    Thank you for your help. I realize I'm in the lions den here, but any honest opinions, no matter whether positive or negative, would be appreciated for us to build a case and assess the severity of the situation.

    Best regards,
    A.K.
    I think you just need to talk to the person running the shop, he's probably not aware that there is a problem, air blasts can be made quieter, unless it is when the machine makes a tool change, air pollution, nothing that would or could affect his neighbour, washing parts outside, if he is doing this openly like this, then he most likely is using a biodegradable cleaner, that won't hurt anything, if you see lots of dead grass where he does this then this should be addressed

    He could insulate the shed/garage, which would cut most of the noise from getting out, most of these start up operations if they are any good, will out grow the building in a short time, and it most likely is only a short term thing

    I do the same thing and use a biodegradable cleaner , that you can wash your car or your cloths or use in your kitchen, and tip it on the grass outside as well, which is 100% safe, what about the fence line that gets sprayed with a weed killer, that is far more toxic than anything that will come from his shop, the only thing you might have is the noise thing, and that is debatable, I run up to 5 machines and one the same as you have described, a ( Haas ) and 2 feet away from the building you can't hear a sound, but you can hear the car & trucks on the freeway that is a mile away

    So what are the dangers, if he is doing everything as it should be, then there are no dangers, sounds like he just needs to address the noise and vent his shop in a different way

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    If the lots are that close, just do what's best for your client and have them call the city's bylaw department. If your client is insisting on sueing then so be it but it's not really a matter for the courts.

    Talk to the inspectors (if they can talk about it) after they pay a visit and they might be able to to tell you if your client has legitimate health concerns.

    It sounds like a home business that's gotten to big for its home roots and needs a commercial space. A little push from bylaws should be all you need.

    Of course I'm Canadian and we generally avoid lawsuits like the plague.

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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Attorney51 View Post
    - Are there any precedents of lawsuits that anyone would be aware of?
    .
    How has it been determined that he is running illegally ??
    Regarding legalities the clients are probably sol . Morally , a proper approach would be to talk to the guy .
    At the end of the day they are neighbors , good neighbors respect other peoples space , and good neighbors don't think of lawsuits before using a few words to address a problem

    He's probably not aware that he is annoying anyone and he probably isn't a difficult person to talk to .
    My woodworker neighbor from a few doors down makes far more noise that all of my metal working equipment running at the same time . He is in his full legal right to possess and use his wood working equipment from 7am till 10pm (city noise bylaw) , just as I am with my metal working equipment . What dictates that we be reasonable with the noise levels is our respect for our neighborhood
    I went the extra mile and went overkill on insulating my shop . I ask my neighbors about the late night noise every so often , they seemed surprised that I work all night and 30-60 hr/week and they were that much more surprised to see what I've got going in my shop
    That guy can easily do the same .
    They may want to ask the bone head to move his exhaust pipe to a more appropriate place . While it's probably harmless - it would be annoying and is pretty ignorant . If the vented smell is a concern then it's simple for him to make a filter box for the venting

    Judging by your user name I'm assume that you are an attorney fishing for whatever you can dig up in order to take full legal action against this person , and your asking us to help you with that
    Who here would like to contribute to a possible legal precedents which goes against us using our own equipment on our own properties ??

    Last edited by dertsap; 03-02-2016 at 11:58 PM.
    A poet knows no boundary yet he is bound to the boundaries of ones own mind !! ........


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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    i wonder how many people started to read this and thought, is it me ?



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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?





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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    I want to delete my post but don't know how, so I replaced the text with this one.

    Last edited by A_Camera; 03-03-2016 at 09:37 AM.


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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    Attorney51

    I missed one thing, something is wrong with the 3 feet from the neighbour's window, something is very wrong with this part, does this person live in a trailer that is parked too close to the boundary line, the closest any where in the US is 14 feet, that would be 7 feet each side, so what going on with this part, if I was to construct a new building I have to be 15 feet from the property line, that would mean there would be a space of 30 feet between any buildings, so someone's building has not been correctly positioned on the property, this could be the workshop, or the neighbour's house, who has their windows open, unless you live by the seaside, things you should be more concerned with is Brake dust in the air from cars, there is tons of this in the air we breathe, fertilizers, in the food you eat, none of the metals you described in your post, have any toxicity, when being machined

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    His screen name indicates he's possibly a lawyer. I refuse to answer on the grounds that I may incriminate myself. I do not recall this thread ever taking place.

    Last edited by Kenny Duval; 03-03-2016 at 10:45 AM.


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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    Thank you all for the replies, and apologies for my absence. To answer some of the questions that have come up:

    "Have they tried talking to the owner/resident and coming to some arrangement around timing and better ventilation etc?" Yes. This operator happens to be rather hostile and has no consideration for neighbors or their well-being.

    "I think you just need to talk to the person running the shop, he's probably not aware that there is a problem." The person is fully aware, as discussions have already been held.

    "if you see lots of dead grass where he does this then this should be addressed" I'm afraid the outside is all concrete and gravel.

    "How has it been determined that he is running illegally". This is a residential neighborhood. This person is operating a commercial business.

    "I missed one thing, something is wrong with the 3 feet from the neighbor's window". These neighbors are basically sharing a wall. The equipment/operations are located/taking place behind this wall.

    I would still appreciate if someone could answer the following questions:

    - What coolants are used in Haas MiniMill2?
    - What chemicals are involved in deburring?

    Thank you, I promise you it's none of you



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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    Coolants would be whatever they want that's appropriate. Deburring would be mechanical, not chemical.

    But you haven't explained why a bylaw approach won't work.

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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    Do you have any coolant examples for aluminum, brass, titanium, etc.? So this type (Mr Deburr Vibratory Finishing Machines | Vibratory Deburring Machines) of deburring device / deburring agent (the green compound) are completely harmless?

    As to bylaws, in this city you need a business license and permit for this type of operation, which would not be approved in a neighborhood that's zoned for residential living.



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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    Indeed. Set the hounds of law (EPA, local shire/town/city council) onto it - that's what these agencies are there for. Or is this more about your client wanting to make some bogus "I'm going to suffer for the rest of my life, pay me eleventybillion dollars" civil liability claim? Because, if that's the case, f*ck that person and anyone supporting their course of action. That attitude is the reason we pay so much for insurance, why the risk of liability means it's just not possible any more to consider commercialising many great ideas, and just a selfish mean way to go through the world.



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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    This is intended purely to shut down the business. The client feels that this is impacting their health and well-being due to the proximity and exposure 12 hours/day, 7 days a week. I'm trying to assess whether that fear is well-founded or not.



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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    So... why not just complain to the council on the basis of operating an industrial business in a residential area and the EPA on the basis of potential noise, air and groundwater pollution?



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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    We're trying to assess whether that level of escalation is appropriate, i.e., this is why I'm trying to assess the degree of harm. The EPA would probably not be receptive unless we can show evidence of actual chemicals being released into the ground. The city's municipality is another matter. We could easily shut the business down. But they would still be living next to each other, which could become rather unpleasant at that point.



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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    Here's another question: How many of you are legally running a Haas MiniMill2 from their home/garage/etc. without requiring any sort of license or permit from the city, and what cities are you living in?



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    Default Re: Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

    you can not run legally-illegally a milling machine..

    if you have ability to run, then you can run..

    if something not exceed the normal street noise, it will be difficult to prove it has any effect..

    your client complain, the ""green stuff"" poisonus..

    versus your client using bleach and that is very well known, if you drink bleach that might be lethal

    so your client can be sued because he using poisonus chemical..
    whats more, your client even drain in the sewersystem the bleach...

    ================================================== ================

    as earlier I tried to pointing out a simple discussion, example a weekend they make some garden party with hot dogs and meat, and sit down to a table to talking, would be 100 times more efficient..
    well, in that case the attorney fee might not so high...

    you can not ""shut down"" your neighbor..
    you can not evict the neighbor just because he noising in his garage..

    again, your client window should not be 3 feet from neighbor building.. need to check with fire dept..

    what is an electrical equipment, hobby or industrial... it just too hard to justify..

    its all just too complicated on official way.. an epa inspection might expenses even compared with an attorney hourly rate.. im not sure your client want to pay that..
    you need to proof with video when neighbor drain the coolant into sewer system..

    is surveillancing my neighbor legal? can I set cameras watching all his yard?



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Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?

Living next to an (illegal) milling shop. What are the dangers?