First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines


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    Cool First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    Be forewarned, I'm an Avionics guy in the past, who has done some benchtop cnc (15 years ago), wired panels and worked in automation. I have a knowledge of what I'm doing electrically and sensor wise. I'm looking for problems with my choices other than monetary.

    ok, so I purchased two emco machines: a PC turn 50 and a PC Mill 50

    I know they are not even close to what I really want (have to start somewhere), and they need new controls. (No computers, interface cards, software, etc.)

    This is my plan:

    I would like to use these components (all from Automation Technology Inc.), http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/

    AC Servo Driver (simDrive) and AC Servo Motor 750W Set for the spindles - Opinions are appreciated on this item. (servo for threading and possible tool change in the future)

    I can't find the power supply for the simDrive AC servo on their website though.....could be a pitfall.

    The axes will be converted to stepper motors (KL23H256-30-4B) and Stepper drivers (KL-5056 20-50VDC) on all three.

    The mill controller will be the CSMIO/IP-S 6 axis Ethernet Motion Controller (Step/Dir) with connectors for Mach 3. I will be adding the CSMIO-ENC Threading module.

    The lathe will be the CSMIO/IP-M 4 Axis Ethernet Motion Controller (Step/Dir) with connectors for Mach 3. Also with the CSMIO-ENC Threading module.

    All control voltage and driver voltage for the steppers will be 24V.

    I would like to get input for my idea. I know there are cheaper solutions to what I'm working towards, but I like the CS Labs items (at least by research. No working knowledge of them.).

    Show me the holes, mistakes, or short comings I haven't thought of.


    James L.

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by propellanttech; 03-15-2017 at 11:40 AM.


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    Default Re: First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    Quote Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
    AC Servo Driver (simDrive) and AC Servo Motor 750W Set for the spindles - Opinions are appreciated on this item. (servo for threading and possible tool change in the future)

    I can't find the power supply for the simDrive AC servo on their website though.....could be a pitfall.
    That's because it doesn't need one, it's 220 VAC input



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    Default Re: First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    That's because it doesn't need one, it's 220 VAC input

    By the datasheet here: http://en.cs-lab.eu/wp-content/uploa...ervo_ennew.pdf

    here: http://en.cs-lab.eu/wp-content/uploa...sm_en_v750.pdf

    and here: http://en.cs-lab.eu/wp-content/uploa...00va_en_v2.pdf

    It does. You can argue with CS labs about the requirement.

    James L



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    Default Re: First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    OK, I see what you are saying

    And it seems that the link to the power supply on their site is broken. I guess a call or email to AT would be in order.

    Here is the only link I could find to the power supply simDrive PowerModule 325VDC|2000VA Power Supply for simDrive Servo Drive | CS-Lab



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    Default Re: First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    OK, I see what you are saying

    And it seems that the link to the power supply on their site is broken. I guess a call or email to AT would be in order.

    Here is the only link I could find to the power supply simDrive PowerModule 325VDC|2000VA Power Supply for simDrive Servo Drive | CS-Lab
    AT isn't totally on point with their sales. They are selling a simDrive and servo that they do not carry the power supply for. Just called them. They do not carry that one item. I contacted CS Labs to try and purchase directly if possible.

    James L



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    Default Re: First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    I recently purchased a PC Mill 50 and am slowly working on cleaning it up and retrofitting it so it is good to see someone else doing it too. I'm not very far into it yet so I can't offer much in the way of advice. I think your selection of components is interesting. I saw someone else on this forum had used a CSMIO controller (IP/M) with the PC Mill 50 and was happy with it. I couldn't find the post but found a youtube link:



    I don't understand German so the video wasn't as useful for me, but in the comments he also notes that he replaced the spindle motor with a 2KW 5000 RPM servo and increased the Y axis travel to125mm (factory specs are 90 and it looks like 100 is possible without removing the stop screws). The factory motor is rated in the low 400 watts so your choice of 750 is almost double the power.

    I am curious as to why you mention the servo motor for the spindle in relation to tool changes. Are you planning on using tool specific rotational indexing or something along those lines? The 30 taper of the spindle doesn't require any indexing itself for tool changes.

    As for my retrofit, my plans are more modest. I have a G540, 48V power supply, and 3 KL23H2100-35-4A (380 oz-in, 400 step/rev) motors. I plan on using a sensorless vector VFD to drive the stock 3 phase motor and perhaps eventually some sort of encoder for rigid tapping. I'm going to drive it with LinuxCNC using the parallel port at first and then once I get the basics working with that I'll probably switch to a Mesa PCI card. LinuxCNC driving the parallel port will have speed issues with the 2.5mm pitch lead screw, 2:1 belt reduction, 10th microstepping, and 400 steps/rev motor.

    Sean



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    Default Re: First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    Quote Originally Posted by seanano View Post
    I recently purchased a PC Mill 50 and am slowly working on cleaning it up and retrofitting it so it is good to see someone else doing it too. I'm not very far into it yet so I can't offer much in the way of advice. I think your selection of components is interesting. I saw someone else on this forum had used a CSMIO controller (IP/M) with the PC Mill 50 and was happy with it. I couldn't find the post but found a youtube link:



    I don't understand German so the video wasn't as useful for me, but in the comments he also notes that he replaced the spindle motor with a 2KW 5000 RPM servo and increased the Y axis travel to125mm (factory specs are 90 and it looks like 100 is possible without removing the stop screws). The factory motor is rated in the low 400 watts so your choice of 750 is almost double the power.

    I am curious as to why you mention the servo motor for the spindle in relation to tool changes. Are you planning on using tool specific rotational indexing or something along those lines? The 30 taper of the spindle doesn't require any indexing itself for tool changes.

    As for my retrofit, my plans are more modest. I have a G540, 48V power supply, and 3 KL23H2100-35-4A (380 oz-in, 400 step/rev) motors. I plan on using a sensorless vector VFD to drive the stock 3 phase motor and perhaps eventually some sort of encoder for rigid tapping. I'm going to drive it with LinuxCNC using the parallel port at first and then once I get the basics working with that I'll probably switch to a Mesa PCI card. LinuxCNC driving the parallel port will have speed issues with the 2.5mm pitch lead screw, 2:1 belt reduction, 10th microstepping, and 400 steps/rev motor.

    Sean
    I had seen that video before, and actually have the thread marked that he commented about his retrofit. ( emco pc mill 50 & similar ) it is in that thread somewhere.

    The Mill will be getting a spindle power upgrade, but the lathe will stay about the same with regards to power output.

    There are two reasons I chose a servo. First, I have viewed youtube videos where a retrofit with a VFD caused problems tapping. The speed of the spindle would change just slightly and Mach 3 did not like it. The change was rapid, so the software couldn't keep up. Second, I figured a home position for a tool changer is a must. This allows tools to be indexed for clearance if they are a strange shape like a fly cutter or such. It's not about the spindle location, but more about making sure the tool doesn't hit something in the tool carousel. It's an expensive upgrade, but will be nice if I do build a tool changer. Off the shelf units are really too big, so it will be a home shop design.

    Your choice of steppers is interesting. I would think you would go with a 200 step per rev stepper. I think that 400 is very large over kill with micro-stepping ability. I've decided to up my steppers to 280 oz inch, which is about 4.5x the original power.

    Your choices will work, as I've read a bunch of gecko + Linux retrofits, that work great. I'm choosing my components to insure if I ever sell it, it will be a very easy system to expand or troubleshoot.

    I will be posting my retrofit here for others. I hope you keep us up to date on yours.

    James L



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    Default Re: First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    I hadn't thought about indexing the tools to fit in the toolchanger. Thanks, that is something to keep in mind if I go down the ATC path.

    I went with the 400 steps/rev motors due to a (probably misguided) belief that they would have better accuracy than the 200 steps/rev motors. I am under the impression that microstepping is more about smoothing out the low speed behavior and while it may add resolution, the accuracy may not be as good between between full steps. I probably should have gone with the 280 oz inch motors, but since I was set on the 400 steps/rev motors I avoided the 280 oz inch ones AT has as they are higher inductance.

    I'm looking forward to seeing your retrofit progress. I was thinking about starting a thread on my retrofit once I get a bit further along. Thanks for the encouragement.

    Sean



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    Default Re: First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    The reason I wouldn't go with 400 steps per rev. The faster you step a stepping motor the less torque you have. And if you use the belt with the 2 to 1 reduction, one step of a 200 stepper would result in 0.0002460623 inches per step, if using the stock ball screws. The ball screws are probably not that precise with the slack, preload + wear. I agree that a 400 step motor is more precise, but I would only go that route if I were to direct drive the ball screw. If you do that, it would be perfect.

    The torque would depend on the method of driving (belt versus direct).

    I will be using the belt reduction.

    Maybe we can inspire each other.

    James L


    Quote Originally Posted by seanano View Post
    I hadn't thought about indexing the tools to fit in the toolchanger. Thanks, that is something to keep in mind if I go down the ATC path.

    I went with the 400 steps/rev motors due to a (probably misguided) belief that they would have better accuracy than the 200 steps/rev motors. I am under the impression that microstepping is more about smoothing out the low speed behavior and while it may add resolution, the accuracy may not be as good between between full steps. I probably should have gone with the 280 oz inch motors, but since I was set on the 400 steps/rev motors I avoided the 280 oz inch ones AT has as they are higher inductance.

    I'm looking forward to seeing your retrofit progress. I was thinking about starting a thread on my retrofit once I get a bit further along. Thanks for the encouragement.

    Sean




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    Default Re: First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    You are definitely inspiring and educating me. I was so focused on the digital side (step/dir pulses) that I didn't take into account the motor itself. Until I read it in your post I had it in my head that stepper motors have less torque the faster they go. This is correct but I failed to make the connection that it was based on the step speed and not the absolute speed of the motor. That now seems so obvious thinking about the motor electrically because the limiting factor is the speed of the change in current in the coil and that is based on the steps. I wasn't planning on direct driving the screws and redoing the calculations I'll probably be lucky to get 35 inches per minute rapids with the current motors when I was shooting for 60 to 75 (original was around 30 I believe). We may end up using the same motors. Sorry to derail your thread, but thanks again for the education.



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    Default Re: First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines

    Sean,

    You are far from derailing the subject. You are helping anyone else, who may read this thread, understand the logic behind what motors to use. I'm just passing along what I've learned doing the research. Servos would be much better, but I can't afford them.

    Just for future information. The ball screws in the PC Turn & Mill 50/55 are 2.5mm per revolution. The steppers are on a belt reduction of 2:1 ratio. The original steppers are NOT a standard NEMA size, but NEMA 23 is very close.

    James L


    Quote Originally Posted by seanano View Post
    You are definitely inspiring and educating me. I was so focused on the digital side (step/dir pulses) that I didn't take into account the motor itself. Until I read it in your post I had it in my head that stepper motors have less torque the faster they go. This is correct but I failed to make the connection that it was based on the step speed and not the absolute speed of the motor. That now seems so obvious thinking about the motor electrically because the limiting factor is the speed of the change in current in the coil and that is based on the steps. I wasn't planning on direct driving the screws and redoing the calculations I'll probably be lucky to get 35 inches per minute rapids with the current motors when I was shooting for 60 to 75 (original was around 30 I believe). We may end up using the same motors. Sorry to derail your thread, but thanks again for the education.




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First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines
First Post in a long time, and it's a real winger. Retrofit of EMCO Machines