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  1. #85
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Hopefully that 90+ VDC is a measurement error. That is about enough DC to kill you. Could you mean millivolts?

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


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    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Hopefully that 90+ VDC is a measurement error. That is about enough DC to kill you. Could you mean millivolts?

    Regards
    yes... sorry mVDC
    ...
    ..



  3. #87
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    whew. (well what's 3 orders of magnitude among friends)

    The 0.09V would be a valid low. But the 1.6V is not a valid high.

    If you move the encoder to random positions do the pins with 1.6V sometimes go low? That would be a clue as to whether or not the encoder is really connected but just not powered properly.

    Otherwise you will need to troubleshoot the problem.

    #1 Check if the voltages are the same on the encoder end of the cable.
    #2 Check if the encoder has 5V power and GND
    #3 I thought I remembered there were pull up resistors. Are those connected properly?

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  4. #88
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Otherwise you will need to troubleshoot the problem.
    #1 Check if the voltages are the same on the encoder end of the cable.
    Tom,
    I was able to checked the voltage at the Motor/Encoder Plug end (Plug connecting to the servo motor, disconnected from the motor), results are:
    Wire #420 (A1+) to GND = 4.776 VDC
    Wire #422 (B1+) to GND = 4.781 VDC

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Otherwise you will need to troubleshoot the problem.
    #2 Check if the encoder has 5V power and GND
    Results at the Motor/Encoder Plug end (Plug connecting to the servo motor, with the plug disconnected from the motor):

    Wire #427 (Y +5 VDC) to GND = 5.041 VDC


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Otherwise you will need to troubleshoot the problem.
    #3 I thought I remembered there were pull up resistors. Are those connected properly?
    I don't know about this......



    I also checked the voltage on the (A1+ and B1+) while manually rotating the Y-axis servo with the encoder/motor connecting plug reconnected.
    The results were 1.606 VDC to 104 mVDC on (A1+)
    and 1.626 VDC to 104 mVDC on (B1+)

    Does this mean something is wrong with the encoder on the Y-axis servo motor?

    .....
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    J325 Quick Links:

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    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 11-25-2017 at 12:35 AM.


  5. #89
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Tom,
    I was able to checked the voltage at the Motor/Encoder Plug end (Plug connecting to the servo motor), results are:
    Wire #420 (A1+) to GND = 4.776 VDC
    Wire #422 (B1+) to GND = 4.781 VDC
    I'm guessing you didn't really understand the idea was to keep the cable and everything connected. The basic idea is that a wire is a solid piece of copper and should basically have the same voltage along the entire length. If you measure 1.6V at the one end and 4.7V at the other end then the two ends must not really be connected together and there must be a break in the wire. However if you unplug and break the connection then we would expect that the two points wouldn't be connected and wouldn't be at the same voltage.

    Please repeat the test with everything connected. I realize it may be more difficult but you will need to find some way to do it.

    I don't know about this......
    I searched back and I see 3 1Kohm resistors pulling up the A+ B+ and Marker+ pins at the top of page 3 for the X axis. But the note says "Typical for all Axes" so they are probably added to X Y and Z. I believe they can be partially seen in image 026_LG.jpg. Actually if pull ups were really needed I would expect them to be both on the + and - pins. Sometimes pull ups on + sides only are used as a somewhat safety measure so if the Encoder is cut off the signals go to a known state.

    Kanalog has 470ohms termination resistor across the + and - inputs. So with one input pulled to +5V through a 1K ohm and the other pulled low I would expect a voltage of 1.6V. So maybe that is a clue.

    Sorry to ramble on but there are so many unknowns it makes it difficult to guess how it is expected to work.

    It would be helpful to go back and repeat the test where you measure the high and low voltage for each of the A+ A- B+ B- for both Y and X. So far I think you have only given partial measurements. Either for only 2 of the 4 pins or in only one of two states and for only the "bad" axis. Please be more thorough and clear. There should be 16 voltages. High voltage and low voltage for each of the 4 pins (8 numbers) and these for both X and Y.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  6. #90
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I'm guessing you didn't really understand the idea was to keep the cable and everything connected.
    This would be correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Please repeat the test with everything connected. I realize it may be more difficult but you will need to find some way to do it.
    This check at the encoder end will most definitely be difficult. I will need to purchase a set of Amphenol - 20-27S (14/16 ) connections and make a break-out plug as I do not know of any other way to get this checked at the servo/encoder end. If someone can share some of their experience here in getting at these wires on the servo/encoder end I would greatly appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I searched back and I see 3 1Kohm resistors pulling up the A+ B+ and Marker+ pins at the top of page 3 for the X axis. But the note says "Typical for all Axes" so they are probably added to X Y and Z. I believe they can be partially seen in image 026_LG.jpg. Actually if pull ups were really needed I would expect them to be both on the + and - pins. Sometimes pull ups on + sides only are used as a somewhat safety measure so if the Encoder is cut off the signals go to a known state.
    At the Kanalog JP1 terminal - A Recheck was made for the Encoder High and Low voltage on the A+ A- B+ B- for both Y and X axis as well as the Pull-Up 1KOhm resisters.
    A total of 16 voltage Checks.

    The new results are at this --> LINK <--. (Also in Quick Links below)



    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Sorry to ramble on but there are so many unknowns it makes it difficult to guess how it is expected to work.
    This so called "ramble on" is of great benefit to me in my learning process ... I appreciate the details.


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    .... Please be more thorough and clear. ....
    Sorry .... I appreciate your patients with my limit electronic knowledge .... I trust I have it thorough and clear this time.


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    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister

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  7. #91
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    This check at the encoder end will most definitely be difficult. I will need to purchase a set of Amphenol - 20-27S (14/16 ) connections and make a break-out plug as I do not know of any other way to get this checked at the servo/encoder end. If someone can share some of their experience here in getting at these wires on the servo/encoder end I would greatly appreciate it.
    This probably isn't necessary at this point

    At the Kanalog JP1 terminal - A Recheck was made for the Encoder High and Low voltage on the A+ A- B+ B- for both Y and X axis as well as the Pull-Up 1KOhm resisters.
    A total of 16 voltage Checks.

    The new results are at this --> LINK <--. (Also in Quick Links below)
    Very clear. Thanks. I see all the - signals are basically not changing voltage at all. I'm guessing the encoder outputs are "open collector". This means they are like a switch that is connected to GND that is opening and closing. They don't source any voltage by themselves and need an external pull up resistor that will pull the pin high when they go open. There are two common types of encoders. "Single ended" and "differential". See:

    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications

    I'm guessing that the old controller just used the + signals and treated the encoders as single ended encoders so they didn't bother to place pull up resistors on the - signals.

    The Kanalog differential encoder inputs require both the + and - signals to go low and high.

    With the - signals always near GND the operation would be very marginal which might explain why X and Z seemed to work and Y not.

    I think the thing to try would be to add 1K ohm pull up resistors (to +5V) to the 6 - signals (411,413,421,423,431,433) in a similar manner as the + signals.

    This would be simpler and better than to try to use KFLOP single ended inputs in a similar manner as the old controller.

    You might start with just adding 2 resistors for Y to test if that makes Y work correctly.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  8. #92
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I think the thing to try would be to add 1K ohm pull up resistors (to +5V) to the 6 - signals (411,413,421,423,431,433) in a similar manner as the + signals.
    This would be simpler and better than to try to use KFLOP single ended inputs in a similar manner as the old controller.
    You might start with just adding 2 resistors for Y to test if that makes Y work correctly.
    Hello Tom,

    I added the 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors (to +5V) (Wire #427) and the Y-axis (CH) -A (wire #421) & (CH) -B (wire #423) as advised.
    The results were very positive and now in line with the X- & Z axis manual movement checks of the Kanalog position results.
    You can review the new results at this ---- LINK -----.
    (also in the quick links below --> Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement.

    Questions:

    1.) Since this corrected the Y-axis, should I be adding these 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors to the negative channels on the X & Z axis?

    2) Do you advise for me to also add these 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors to the negative "Marker" channels on all three axis as well?

    Thanks again for the great insight.
    .....
    .....

    J325 Quick Links:

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    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister

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  9. #93
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    Good news

    1.) Since this corrected the Y-axis, should I be adding these 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors to the negative channels on the X & Z axis?
    Yes

    2) Do you advise for me to also add these 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors to the negative "Marker" channels on all three axis as well?
    I wouldn't worry about the marker pulse at this point. It doesn't need to be connected at all. You can connect it later and make use of it for more accurate homing if that turns out to be necessary.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  10. #94
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Tom -- I have all the 1K Ohm "Pull-Up" resistors connected to all the six channels of the X-axis encoder wires (A+, A-, B+, B- Marker+, Marker-). The same thing has been applied for the Y-axis and Z-axis encoder wires.

    I believe I am now ready for the next step in testing.

    Correct me if I am wrong here; however, I think the next steps in the testing should be to see if KFLOP will control the servo motors speed with encoder feed-back for position.
    To do this, I think I need to:

    #1 -- Run KMotion.exe and open the Console Screen, Configuration Screen and select "Channel 0" for the X-axis, and then "Load Channel" with (KanalogInitialPID.mot).
    #2 -- Also open the "Axis" screen to monitor the X-axis "Position" #0.
    #3 -- Power the System up, making sure 1CON relay in engaged for power to the Amplifier.
    #4 -- Enter a DAC0 = (some value ... say 100) command to verify that KFLOP can control the X-axis Servo Motor.
    #5 -- Hit the "Send" button on the Console Screen ... which should give me the following results.
    #6 -- This should give me a result of moving the X-axis servo motor about 5% of the full speed in a positive X-axis direction motion.
    #7 -- Then I should enter a DAC0 = -100 command to verify that KFLOP can control the X-axis Servo Motor in the opposite direction, which should be the negative X-axis direction at about 5% of full speed.
    #8 -- If I then enter a DAC0 = 0 command, then the X-axis servo motor should Stop and hold position.
    #9 -- If the results are as stated above, then apply this same test of #1 thru #8 above to the Y-axis and the Z-axis.

    Please advise if I am not understanding this correctly.

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-kmotion_test2a-jpg Link to High-Res Picture

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    J325 Quick Links:

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    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister

    .....
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  11. #95
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi PeterTheWolf,

    You should be excited. After all the work this is the fun part where you first get the machine to move.

    Yes you should do all those steps.

    But I think you have a bit of a misconception of what it does. This is pretty much the same as was applying the battery as a test to set the amplifier speeds. So in step #8 the motor commanded to zero speed should stop or nearly stop (drift) but it won't be servoing and holding position. You might read this on drift:

    Kanalog Hardware Info - Dynomotion

    To Enable the Servo you might go to the Step Response Screen and push "Zero" the "Enable". Take case as you have about a 50% chance of the axis running away if the feedback is reversed. See:
    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications

    With proper feedback the axis should now actually servo and hold position. If you push the motor away it should move back. If so you could then make a "Move" and observe the plot!

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  12. #96
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    You should be excited.
    YES ... however, now I enter into a new level of confusion ... understanding all the parameters in KMotion.

    This Second Kmotion test was very positive.

    All axis moved with DACxx = 100 in one direction and the opposite direction with DACxx = -100.
    However, they moved in the opposite directions then I expected based on sign .... so, a "-" value moved all axis in the positive x/y/z coordinate direction instead of the negative.

    It was as you said, I most definitely got "Axis Drift"on all axis when a DACxx=0 command was send.


    On the Third Kmotion test ... Enabling the Servo on the Step Response Screen I did get "Run-Away" on the Y-axis and the Z-axis.

    However, during this "Run-Away" the "Position" values on the Axis Screen for 1,2 ( while Enabled) remained unchanged.
    Is this expected?


    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    To Enable the Servo you might go to the Step Response Screen and push "Zero" the "Enable". Take case as you have about a 50% chance of the axis running away if the feedback is reversed. See:
    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications
    Ok ... in this document it is mentioned:

    "You can change positive to negative feedback by reversing anything in the axis. The simplest thing to reverse is the OutputGain. "

    So, I tried changing, what I thought, was the "OutputGain" on the Y-axis from the "1" to "-1" which started to make the X-axis move when I "Zero" and "Enable" the "1" (Y-axis).
    So, I am confused.


    Tree325 Retrofit Started-001_3rd_test-jpg Link to this Image

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post

    .... If you push the motor away it should move back.
    I also am not sure what you mean by this ... push the motor away by a DAC=100 command?

    .....
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    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
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    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring
    KFLOP 5VDC/15Watt/3A Power Supply
    KANALOG Mounted & Connected
    Kmotion - Axis Encoder Manual Test of Position via Manual Movement
    Kanalog-Encoder Voltage High/Low Checks & 1KOhm Resister

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    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 12-10-2017 at 09:51 PM.


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