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  1. #37
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Hello mmurray70,

    I am working on getting a power supply and 10 Ohm/5 watt resistor for my Kflop/Kanalog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    I would probably setup Kanalog to switch 24v on and off and connect it to this point and control the relay. So basically remove the reset wire and everything to the left of that point and use a Kanalog output to enable everything from there. This would still keep the safety of E stop, overloads and limit switches. This would get rid of the latching part of the relay, but I think you would be fine with just using Kanalog.




  2. #38
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    I do have a quality voltmeter.
    good

    What confuses me is where the heck these wires are physically on the machine and where to take the readings at.
    It seems you figured it out. The node numbers are labeled on the wires and you must search to find them.

    What I think I understand is 24V Hot wire is being feed into the user panel with line #200. Which means I can take a DC-V meter reading from (one of the terminals) labeled #200 (Pos-lead) on on the wire bus to the left and the #4 (GND) (Neg-Lead) terminal on the wire bus and I should get 24V no matter what the state of the user panel.
    I agree. Do you get the 24V?

    If I take a reading from the terminal #203 on the wire bus and the #4 (GND) and do not get 24V then something on the user panel is preventing the circuit to close and feed 24V to 1CRE. If the user panel is not allow the 24V to #203, then here is where I do not understand what is preventing it.
    That is correct. Unfortunately you don't have any information on the control panel wiring. So you have no choice but to open and reverse engineer it or completely workaround and replace it as mmurray70 suggests. It seems there were 2 means of re-enabling the CRE1 #203 and #214. I was expecting a big Reset/Enable button on the control panel making the connection to #214. But your photo shows more like a keyboard button to the old computer. But it would just take a second to push reset and see if you get 24V on #214 however unlikely...

    As mmurray70 suggests you might add your own switch to +24V. Either a mechanical switch or a Kanalog Output. Kanalog Opto Outputs are only rated to switch 25ma. So you must look up the specs on those relays to see how much coil current they draw at 24V in order to drive it directly with a Kanalog Opto Output sourcing 24V. If they cannot be driven directly you will need to add a relay or other device that can switch the current.

    The monitor screen is dead, I cannot see what is happening on it. The reset-button, I think will have no effect on the results of this reading; however, I have not tried it yet.
    Yes we know this. We don't want to utilize anything from the old controller anyways. The only way the reset button could be used as-is is if it was hard wired and not involving the old computer like some of the other buttons like E-Stop are wired. But that seems unlikely at this point.

    HTH

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  3. #39
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Here are the results of my last testing of the servo motors with the 1.5V battery in series with a 1K Ohm resistor across the “Velocity Command” lines of each axis (connectors attached to the drive boards) .

    1.) I First checked for 24VDC at line #200 to #4 (GND) with the controller switched off. No 24VDC.
    2.) Turned on the controller (via user panel side switch) and then re-check line #200 to #4 (GND) ... I got 24VDC. Still confused why the controller had to be turned on.
    3.) Checked line #203 to #4 (GND) with the controller on; however, I did not get 24VDC.
    4.) I tried a jumper wire from #200 to #203 to by-pass the user panel.... this did not bring in the 1CRE, so 1CON relay would not engage.
    5.) Then I tried a jumper wire from #200 to #209 on the 1CRE and this engaged the 1CON relay. Which I assumed would then provide the power to the drives.
    6.) So I executed the 1.5V battery in series with a 1K Ohm resistor across the “Velocity Command” lines of each axis. I was able to get each axis moving (very slow) in either direction by changing the leads on the battery.
    7.) While I was moving the servo motors I also checked the voltage across the, what I though, was the power (voltage) making the servo motors move ( the inducers leads I believe) at wires #56 to #57, #66 to #67, and #76 to #77 and I was getting 3VDC on each axis. I am not sure what this tells me, other than I believe this was the voltage making the servo motors move very, very slow.... almost could not see them move at all unless you knew you were looking for that.
    8.) So, I am assuming my servo motors are good and I am now ready to think about wiring up the Kflop/Kanalog wiring .... right???
    9.) I would really appreciate advice as to the next step, if I executed these steps correctly.

    Thanks ....

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-24v_200_to_209_sch-jpg Tree325 Retrofit Started-24v_from_200_to_209-jpg

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-page5_v_chk-jpg Tree325 Retrofit Started-dcv_chk_across_axis_pict-jpg

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  4. #40
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    4.) I tried a jumper wire from #200 to #203 to by-pass the user panel.... this did not bring in the 1CRE, so 1CON relay would not engage.
    That would be as expected. Because 1CRE is off, it's contact (#204 - #206), will still be open so this will do nothing. You would need this connection and then momentarily 24V to #214 to get things enabled. Or continuously to #214.

    5.) Then I tried a jumper wire from #200 to #209 on the 1CRE and this engaged the 1CON relay. Which I assumed would then provide the power to the drives.
    This is ok for a test but this bypasses EStop, Limits, Coolant checks, etc.

    6.) So I executed the 1.5V battery in series with a 1K Ohm resistor across the “Velocity Command” lines of each axis. I was able to get each axis moving (very slow) in either direction by changing the leads on the battery.
    Some progress, but doesn't sound quite right yet. 1.5V should be 15% of full speed which should be significant and not a slow creep. I suspect we don't have the right connections to the Amplifier. According to the schematic the Amp has 3 inputs: A differential input (J2 pin 1 and 2), a signal input (J1 pin2), and an aux input (J1pin1). I'm confused because now looking at the schematics it wouldn't make sense to connect our battery to J1 pins 1 and 2. Applying + and - to those shouldn't do much of anything which may be why you see the super slow movement. If using one those the - should be connected to GND J1 Pin 9 or 11. I think you need to spend some time to figure that out. Please take some close up pictures of the Amp boards and connectors. Maybe the drives don't match the drawing? But on the other hand the old controller seemed to be using those pins so I would expect it to work.

    Below is your Amp Drawing and the supposed connections to the Amp. The drawing shows connected to J2. But the photo looks more like J1. Can you identify where J2 is?

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-ampconnections-jpg

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-ampinput-jpg

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  5. #41
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    You should try your test again with a jumper from 200 to 206 instead of from 200 all the way to 209. This should do the same thing, but use the safety of estop, travel limits and overloads cutting power if something goes wrong.

    It would be best to control the relay with Kanalog but maybe a mechanical switch as Tom mentioned would be best for now until you get everything up and running. You could come back to this later when you have more understanding on how to control outputs with Kanalog.

    After your finished with the relay thing, the next step will be to supply power to the encoders (usually 5v). Then connect the encoder signal wires to Kanalog, be sure to use shielded cables. And finally Kanalog DAC outputs connect to where your applying the test voltage. And then your ready to roll i think, or at least ready to start tuning.



  6. #42
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    .... Please take some close up pictures of the Amp boards and connectors. Maybe the drives don't match the drawing? But on the other hand the old controller seemed to be using those pins so I would expect it to work.
    Below is your Amp Drawing and the supposed connections to the Amp. The drawing shows connected to J2. But the photo looks more like J1. Can you identify where J2 is?
    Tom, I finally got some pictures of one of the drive boards (SD1525-10) for clarity.... you can view them Here at this Link.

    If I use D=R*T to calculate, what I think the feed-rate was on my last 1.5V battery in series with a 1K Ohm resistor across the “Velocity Command” lines, I get about 6 IPM.
    If the max feed rate of the J325 is 200 IPM at max. voltage, I should see 30 IPM based on 15% of 200 IPM on the X-axis move which would be about 1" in two seconds. Am I calculating this correctly?

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    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used

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  7. #43
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    You should try your test again with a jumper from 200 to 206 instead of from 200 all the way to 209. This should do the same thing, but use the safety of estop, travel limits and overloads cutting power if something goes wrong.
    OK ...
    1.) I tested once more the 1.5V battery in series with a 1K Ohm resistor across the “Velocity Command” lines of each X-axis while using the jumper from #200 to #206 on the 1CRE relay.
    2.) It responded as you expected mmurray70 and indeed pulled in the 1CON relay as designed.
    3.) I also tried the Estop and limit switch while the X-axis was in motion and the both safety features dropped out the 1CON relay as long as the switches were closed (on) .... Cool.
    4.) I also measured the X-axis movement over a 10 second time frame with this test. The X-axis moved off the arrow reference mark about .685" in 10 seconds.
    5.) So, wouldn't that put the feed-rate at 4.11 IPM using the 1.5V battery in series with a 1K Ohm resistor across the “Velocity Command” lines, which should give 15% of the max. feed rate ... but is not?
    6.) d=r*t --> r=.685" / .1666 mins. r=4.11 IPM

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    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used

    .....
    .....



  8. #44
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Good news on the EStop etc... Great amplifier photos. It seems the input voltage is to J2 in agreement with the schematic. I agree with your calculations. It seems we are ~7X too slow for some reason.

    Are you disconnecting the old connections to J2? I had asked you to try to pop those pins out of the connector or cut them. If those are still connected then the old controller circuit might fight with the battery+1Kohm and likely mostly win the battle.

    You might also check the voltage into J2 at the J2 pins. It should be nearly 1.5V if nothing else is driving those pins.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  9. #45
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Good news on the EStop etc... Great amplifier photos. It seems the input voltage is to J2 in agreement with the schematic. I agree with your calculations. It seems we are ~7X too slow for some reason.

    Are you disconnecting the old connections to J2? I had asked you to try to pop those pins out of the connector or cut them. If those are still connected then the old controller circuit might fight with the battery+1Kohm and likely mostly win the battle.

    You might also check the voltage into J2 at the J2 pins. It should be nearly 1.5V if nothing else is driving those pins.

    Regards
    Yes Tom, You did advise me to disconnect J2 (pins 1 & 2) from the controller cable and I did not. I just tested the X-axis one more time with the 1K Ohm resistor across the “Velocity Command” J2 (pin 1 & 2) lines of the X-axis from the back side of the driver board after I cut these wires from the controller cable.
    And yes, now I am getting 30-24 IPM based on the 8-10 seconds I counted for a 4.0" motion on the X-axis. Cool ... it is now tested as OK.

    I also checked the voltage on the J2 (across pins 1 & 2) while running and I was getting 1.59 VDC as compared the 1.6 VDC on the battery unloaded.

    I am getting a "singing" noise from the drive when 1CON relay is engaged and there is power to the drive.
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    Here is a video where you can hear it:

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    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used

    .....
    .....

    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 10-15-2017 at 08:59 PM.


  10. #46
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Good to hear that you got it figured out. Thats some great troubleshooting Tom, i wouldnt have thought of that.

    The singing is the PWM from the servo drives. Servo drives tend to make a high frequency sound, but most drives are switching at a frequency above our hearing range so you dont notice much if anything depending on the drive and your hearing. Older drives switched at a lower frequency that is well within our hearing range and thats the annoying sound your hearing. Might have to learn to live with it. Should be a little better with the cabinet closed, but it will still be noticable. You can hear the same thing in this youtube video:




    Also, thanks for posting those links in every post, great idea.



  11. #47
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Congrats!! That's a major milestone.

    Like mmurray70 says you may need to live with that singing if that is the switching frequency of the drives. Or switch to a SnapAmp that switches at 32KHz

    Is the singing sound as bad when you disconnect all your test leads? Those long unshielded leads might be picking up switching noise and feeding it back in.

    The next steps would be to mount KFLOP+Kanalog, connect the Kanalog DAC outputs 0, 1, 2 (and GNDs) to where the battery was connected. Use shielded cable if possible and connect the shield to GND at the Amplifier the same pin as the tachometer shield is connected.

    Also connect the encoder signals A+ A- B+ B- and GND to Kanalog Differential inputs (and Kanalog GND). The "Marker" signal is a once per rev encoder pulse and is optional. If interfaced it can make homing more accurate.

    Our wiki might help with these steps.



    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  12. #48
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    ...
    Is the singing sound as bad when you disconnect all your test leads? Those long unshielded leads might be picking up switching noise and feeding it back in.
    Tom, I am pretty sure this singing was there before I connected the leads; however, I will observe on my next power up.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    ...

    The next steps would be to mount KFLOP+Kanalog, connect the Kanalog DAC outputs 0, 1, 2 (and GNDs) to where the battery was connected. Use shielded cable if possible and connect the shield to GND at the Amplifier the same pin as the tachometer shield is connected.

    Also connect the encoder signals A+ A- B+ B- and GND to Kanalog Differential inputs (and Kanalog GND). The "Marker" signal is a once per rev encoder pulse and is optional. If interfaced it can make homing more accurate.
    I know this is elementary for you, however, let’s take a few small elementary steps.

    1.) Just to confirm. I see the Kanalog DAC outputs on the board at JP11, So I would be connecting X,Y,& Z axis drive Pins (Red, pos. Leads on the old controller connector) to the JP11 pins 0,1,2 respectively and the Neg. Pin (black lead old controller connector) to JP11 GNDs.
    2.) The old controller connector will no longer be connected at all or I only cut the first two wires on all three axis connectors and still keep the connectors connected? I am assuming this connect will no longer be connect on the drives.
    3.) I do not know what pins are the Encoder Signal Pins on the drive board. I cannot discern the drive schematic at this point. Can you please advise?
    4.) I did notice on RickB's J325 retrofit drawing schematic (page 2), he had used a custom board. Will this be needed?
    5.) When using shielded wire ... is only one end grounded to the GND on the Kanalog board?

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-dac_pins-jpg

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-encoderpins-jpg Tree325 Retrofit Started-rickb_enc_leads-jpg

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    J325 Quick Links:

    Machine
    Existing Machine Schematics
    Electronic Cabinet-Right Side
    Electronic Cabinet-Back SIde
    Existing Drive Board SD1525-10
    3-Phase Rotary Convert Used
    RickB's J325 Retrofit Wiring


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    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 10-16-2017 at 10:22 PM.


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Tree325 Retrofit Started
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