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Thread: Tree325 Retrofit Started

  1. #13
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Well no. The main idea of the test is to prove that you can make the motors move without the original controller. This requires that the amplifiers have power, are enabled, and receive a command voltage (the battery+resistor) at the right place. If the original controller was somehow involved in turning on power or enabling the drives then the motors won't move as you apply the command voltage. In that case you might try with the original controller on (assuming it is available and still works) to see if the motors move, and if so, track down what else is required to make the amplifiers work. Of course you will need to disconnect where the original controller applies the command voltage so you can apply the battery+resistor voltage.

    HTH

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  2. #14
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    I have taken pictures of the existing Tree 325 Electronic in the Right-Hand side Cabinet and the Back Cabinet before I start this retrofit as I am sure I will need help with the wiring to the Kflop / Kanalog boards.

    Here are the links to pictures:

    Right-Hand Side Cabinet

    Back Cabinet

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  3. #15
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Peter that VFD is a replacement. And its a 10HP VFD, your machine is 5hp right? Its very common for people to run 3ph VFDS double in size off a single phase supply to avoid using phase converters, only downside is its very expensive to do this. Its possible the previous owner had this machine running single phase, or was planning to do so. You may be able to avoid a phase converter entirely on your machine. Can you post pic of spindle motor tag? Machine obviously has been tinkered with, none of the VFD control wires are even connected.

    I would think your probably safe to pull that whole chassis of circuit boards from the old controller. Trace each cable and eliminate anything not needed and label anything you keep. Probably will want to keep most everything else. Servo drives are above obviously, Im not sure about the three transformer looking things to the left of the servo drives. The thing in pic 8 is an EMI filter probably to filter the power to the old controller.



  4. #16
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Hi Peter,

    Here is my guess at where the Velocity Command Input to the amplifiers is:

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-ampvelocitycommand-jpg

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


  5. #17
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    mmurray70, I would really like to eliminate the 3-phase Rotary converter and use the VFD (off single phase if possible) for the spindle motor only.
    I will try and get a picture of the spindle motor tag. As far as the all the unattached wires in the VFD, the last owner told me that these should be all labeled accordingly to connect to the VFD bus. I have not had a chance to verify this yet.
    I believe I have just about everything in place to try and connect this to the 3-Phase rotary convert and see if it will come up. I had to put in a ground rod in outside to connect the ground of the machine to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmurray70 View Post
    ... .. You may be able to avoid a phase converter entirely on your machine. Can you post pic of spindle motor tag? Machine obviously has been tinkered with, none of the VFD control wires are even connected.

    I would think your probably safe to pull that whole chassis of circuit boards from the old controller. Trace each cable and eliminate anything not needed and label anything you keep. Probably will want to keep most everything else. Servo drives are above obviously, Im not sure about the three transformer looking things to the left of the servo drives. The thing in pic 8 is an EMI filter probably to filter the power to the old controller.




  6. #18
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Tom,

    I know this is clear to you what exactly needs to be done; however, I am still unsure. I will try to educate myself some more and then once I think I know what I am doing I will check back for accuracy.
    Thanks,

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Peter,

    Here is my guess at where the Velocity Command Input to the amplifiers is:

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-ampvelocitycommand-jpg

    Regards




  7. #19
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterTheWolf View Post
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    mmurray70, I would really like to eliminate the 3-phase Rotary converter and use the VFD (off single phase if possible) for the spindle motor only.
    .
    Well its not just the spindle motor only, the entire machine should be able to run off single phase if the spindle drive works out. The rest of the machine appears to run off just one of the three phases (which is the same as single phase). So single phase 240 should power your servo drives fine. Only other thing three phase looks to be the coolant pump. And i i would just replace that rather then have to mess with a phase converter personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterTheWolf View Post
    ....
    I will try and get a picture of the spindle motor tag. As far as the all the unattached wires in the VFD, the last owner told me that these should be all labeled accordingly to connect to the VFD bus. I have not had a chance to verify this yet.
    I believe I have just about everything in place to try and connect this to the 3-Phase rotary convert and see if it will come up. I had to put in a ground rod in outside to connect the ground of the machine to.
    .....
    Most of those small control wires that are labeled at the VFD will likely have to go. You will need to run new wires from Kanalog. You will probably end up with 5 wires to control the VFD, a CW signal, CCW signal, a common for these signals, and an analog 0-10V signal to control speed and maybe an enable signal too. All these will connect to Kanalog outputs, and its a good idea to connect a fault line back to Kanalog inputs to tell Kflop to shut things down if anything goes wrong with spindle drive like an overload.

    Looking at Ricks diagram, it looks like the original drive had encoder feedback. The drive you has is newer technology and should run decent with no feedback at all. But keep these wires for the encoder tucked away for possible fine tuning down the road. These encoder signals can also be connected to kanalog to display RPM, do rigid tapping, setup spindle as a servo etc.



  8. #20
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    mmurray70, Base on what I understand from the specs on the Durapluse AC Drive - VFD (Model: GS3-2010), this drive will only run on input of 3-phase. Spec Link
    Wouldn't this mean that I would have purchase a new VFD with a single phase input for the 5hp spindle motor? As you said below ... they are expensive. This may fall low on the priority budget list.

    I have not been able to get to a readable picture of the servo tag yet; however, based on what I have seen from other J325 owners, I think I should have a similar servos since these motors are Baldor.
    Here is a picture of of the servo motor tag from another user of the J325. Server Tag Link

    I am going to need some help in choosing a AC/DC replacement power supply for these servos.

    I was thinking of this power supply: "PS-15N80R5R12" from here.
    Power Supply Specs
    and I was hoping it was be able to power the Kflop/Kanalog boards as well.

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  9. #21
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    Specs dont show 3 phase input as an option, but many drives will work on single phase at a lower capacity anyway. Take a look at this: https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...3PSRkzt0z-w6vI I did look at the specs of your drive and saw something about "input phase detection". That could possibly be a sign of a deal breaker, but i would certainly check into it to find out for sure. There is an awesome VFD forum on practical machinist website. If you posted there im sure someone could tell you for sure if this would work with your drive. If its not possible for some reason, yeah makes more sense to use phase converter then replace it. Try and post pic of Spindle motor tag, thats what i was wondering about.

    If you still want to use original drives you should use the original power supply too. Half of your power supply is actually located on the servo drive chassis (rectifier and capacitor). The other parts are the really big transformer which takes 230vac and drops it down to 72VAC and the small transformer to the right of your servo drives takes 230VAC and steps it down to 115VAC. Both these voltages (the 72VAC and 115VAC) are what power the servo drive chassis and servo drives. These voltages connect to the screw terminal on the right hand side of the servo drive chassis. 72VAC goes to screw 9 and 10 and 115VAC goes to screw 11 and 12. So really in terms of power supply all you need to do is get 230 VAC to both these transformers, and your servo drive chassis is all powered up. This 230 is a single phase. Can be one of the 3 phases or a single phase only supply. All the factory wiring to supply these transformers should be able to be reused without much or any modification. There is a contactor switching the big transformer on and off, you will have to figure that out to get 72VAC out.

    These posts are only suggestions, please double check everything and be safe. I cant tell everything 100% just from a few pics and honestly im not an electrical expert anyway. But just trying to help the best way i can. Good luck with it.



  10. #22
    Gold Member Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

    The servo drives appear to be Servo Dynamics 1225 or 1560 (I think those are the correct part numbers, going from my poor memory here) My machine has the same drives and servo motors. I have the pinouts for the drives if you need them. TomKerekes is correct on the command signal wiring if those are SD drives.

    All of the servo system and controls should be supplied from 2 legs of the 3 phase input, thus single phase. The servo supply transformer should be powered up by an OPTO22 solid state relay that is controlled by the control circuit. They used these OPTO22 SSRs because they have zero crossing turn on and thus mitigate the inrush current somewhat. On my machine, the entire control panel plugs into a 120V outlet on the wall. The wiring to the VFD/spindle motor is totally separate. I also just went through a BP retrofit that has a control panel that looks pretty much like yours.

    The only things on that machine that should be 3 phase are the spindle and possibly the coolant pump. According to the documentation on the Automation Direct website the GS3 2010 requires 3 phase input. But I don't know if supplying it with single phase would throw an error. Some 3 phase input VFDs will work if you connect one single phase leg to L1, the other single phase leg to L2, and put a jumper between L2 and L3. Try this at your own risk, I have never done it.

    I can't help with the Dynomotion stuff, but Tom is an expert on that. But maybe I can be of some help with the servo wiring.

    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA


  11. #23
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Just an update. I tried bring this machine up today with the 3-phase rotary converter with all the existing electronics/design.
    The machined powered up; however, I got no CRT (monitor screen), it just stay black. I was able to see the yellow color flash when I turned it off and on via the control switch side on.

    I did find 11 of 12 Tree 325 schematic pages of the original design. I trust this will help in this retrofit. These Tree schematics can be view: Here
    I am missing page 10, so if someone has page 10 of the Tree schematics, and if someone is willing to share, can you please PM me with it.
    I am hoping they will help those that are willing to me.
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    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 10-07-2017 at 10:24 PM.


  12. #24
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tree325 Retrofit Started

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    Tom,

    After doing what I could to figure out how to test these motors according to your suggestion ... I am still unsure how to go about this. Please correct me in my understanding this test.

    The “Velocity Command” wires coming from the Kanalog is the +/- 10 volts applied to the amplifier and the amplifier has some gain to increase the voltage which is what is applied to the server motor to make it move. Now I am not sure what the gain of the amplifier is.
    So, if I were to use a simple 12 volt car battery for this test, then I would need to apply a resister in series between the positive side battery lead and the Red velocity command lead such that I would be applying, let’s say, 8 volts. Since this is DC, this voltage being applied at these two leads would also provide the amplifier with the needed current to move the motor? So I am not sure what size resister to use. How much current should I being calculating for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Peter,

    Here is my guess at where the Velocity Command Input to the amplifiers is:

    Tree325 Retrofit Started-ampvelocitycommand-jpg

    Regards




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Tree325 Retrofit Started
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