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Thread: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

  1. #1
    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    Forum Lurker,

    I need to replace the drives/steppers/power supply of a used 3-axis Taig Deasktop CNC I purchased. It loose steps, is slow, and is not set-up correctly.

    I was considering the following replacement components:

    MeanWell 48V DC 7.3A 350W Power Supply to drive steppers (Manufacturer Part #:NES-350-48)
    The Ethernet SmoothStepper (B-ESS) - to eliminate the LTP port from older PC
    G540 4-Axis Digital Step Drive (to drive stepper motors)
    NEMA23 381oz/in 3.5A, Dual Shaft Stepper Motors, KL23H2100-35-4B, Inductance 2.8 mH (trying to hold < 2.5mh inductance)

    However, I started reading about the Dynomotion solution on the CNC forum and what kind of support is out there to get this project completed.

    The goal of this project is to.
    1.) Replace the existing CNC motion control on the Taig machine I have.
    2.) To teach myself how to set-up/configure the motion solution for a machine.
    3.) Prepare me for a replacement CNC motion controller on an existing knee mill that has an existing fried/not working/out dated solution.
    4.) Support from such a forum as this and experienced people (willing to share) is absolute necessary, as I am weak in all areas needed to make this project a success.

    I understand it will cost money. But education cost money, period. May it be through the organized system or the school of hard knocks; it is going to cost something.

    I just would like to minimize the cost as I go … moving forward with a solution I can grow into and have the support to get better.

    Dynomotion solution is the choice I am making.

    So, if I may, can I please get a few question answered before I spend my first $1000.00?

    1.) I would really like to have a solution that would be closed-loop. Now I am not looking for the closed loop solution like the industrial CNC machining centers; however, I would like to have a solution that can correct itself without having to re-reference.
    2.) So, I would first need help in deciding which motors to purchase.
    a. Low cost: Stepper motor with encoders attached (digital quadrature signal)
    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...lat-381-oz-in/
    Encoder from: www.usdigital.com
    Can someone please suggest one as I am not sure which one of these will work wtith KFLOP.
    b. Much higher cost: ClearPath-Integrated Servo System (CPM-SDSK-2331S-RLN)
    https://www.teknic.com/model-info/CPM-SDSK-2331S-RLN/
    c. Mid-Range Cost: NEMA 23 283 oz-in (2.0 Nm) Easy Servo Motor; Fully Closed Position Loop with Integrated 4,000 CPR (1,000-line) Encoder; 20-50VDC/6A Peak, KL-5056H
    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...-50vdc6a-peak/


    3.) Based on the motors choice, the Dynomotion solution to go with:
    a. KFLOP Controller, KSTEP, and Kanalog
    b. Do I need the Konnect for other devices?
    Will not be using spindle feedback at this time
    Will not be using glass scale feedback.
    I would like On/OFF Spindle Control by relay
    External Inputs:
    CycleStart Button
    StopButton
    Coolant on/off Button
    Spindle on/off Button
    Limit/Reference Switches.

    Future External Inputs:
    MPG pendant.
    Possibly 4th axis.

    4.) When choosing a power supply for motors/controller, can I get some possible suggestions?
    a. Here is what I was thinking:
    Low cost: MeanWell 48V DC 7.3A 350W Power Supply to drive steppers (Manufacturer Part #:NES-350-48)
    NES-350-48 Mean Well | Mouser

    b. Higher cost: Low Voltage (75 VDC) Motor Drive Power Supplies
    https://www.teknic.com/products/serv...-power-supply/

    The above in Word Format-with links


    Thanks,
    PeteW.

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 09-09-2017 at 02:12 PM.


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    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    Hi Pete,

    Our KFLOP+KStep should be all you really need. It includes simple wiring, Voltage Clamping so Switching Supplies can be used safely, 16 Opto Isolated inputs, 2 Relay driver outputs, an analog output, with no heat sink required (efficient 17milliohm FETS).



    You might consider these larger motors for the same price since KStep can handle 5A
    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...lat-570-oz-in/

    The closed loop motors you link to would be better at avoiding stalls but one disadvantage is that they don't output position back to the controller so after a disable or fault position is lost.

    Any of the USDigital.com digital incremental encoders should be compatible. Choose the line driver option so you will have the option to connect them to either differential inputs or single ended inputs. See:
    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications

    HTH
    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


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    Registered PeterTheWolf's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    Thanks for the reply Tom,

    And thanks for the video; this makes things much easier for setting up and configuring

    As far as the motor goes ... I need motors with a Ø.250" shaft on the drive end.

    Regarding the close loop motor, the third motor on my list below:

    a. Mid-Range Cost: NEMA 23 283 oz-in (2.0 Nm) Easy Servo Motor; Fully Closed Position Loop with Integrated 4,000 CPR (1,000-line) Encoder; 20-50VDC/6A Peak, KL-5056H
    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...-50vdc6a-peak/

    After review the online documentation on this motor once more, it states that it does indeed offer output position back to the controller:
    “The drive board takes step & direction input commands, and is capable of outputting in-position and fault signals back to a motion controller or external devices, for complete system controls.”
    Motor Docs link

    Am I missing something here?

    So I should be good with this motor, KFLOP Controller, and KSTEP to produce a close loop system?

    Thanks again,



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    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    Hi Pete,

    Regarding the close loop motor, the third motor on my list below:

    a. Mid-Range Cost: NEMA 23 283 oz-in (2.0 Nm) Easy Servo Motor; Fully Closed Position Loop with Integrated 4,000 CPR (1,000-line) Encoder; 20-50VDC/6A Peak, KL-5056H
    https://www.automationtechnologiesin...-50vdc6a-peak/

    After review the online documentation on this motor once more, it states that it does indeed offer output position back to the controller:
    “The drive board takes step & direction input commands, and is capable of outputting in-position and fault signals back to a motion controller or external devices, for complete system controls.”
    Motor Docs link

    Am I missing something here?
    If you read carefully it doesn't say that it outputs position. Rather it outputs an "in-position signal". An in-position signal can't be used to track where the motor is, it just informs you of whether the motor is or is not within a tolerance of where it is commanded to be. You can also look at the connection terminals and see there aren't any encoder outputs. It still a great closed loop system but just without the capability of the main controller of knowing the actual motor position before or after a fault.

    So I should be good with this motor, KFLOP Controller, and KSTEP to produce a close loop system?
    KStep is a stepper motor driver. If you buy motors with integrated drivers then you wouldn't want or need KStep.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    Thanks Tom for the clarity......

    I will more forward with the Dynomotion solution purchase with stepper motors and encoders.

    Thanks again for the support ... I am sure I will need more in the days/weeks ahead as components start coming in.

    PeteW



    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Pete,

    If you read carefully it doesn't say that it outputs position. Rather it outputs an "in-position signal". An in-position signal can't be used to track where the motor is, it just informs you of whether the motor is or is not within a tolerance of where it is commanded to be. You can also look at the connection terminals and see there aren't any encoder outputs. It still a great closed loop system but just without the capability of the main controller of knowing the actual motor position before or after a fault.

    KStep is a stepper motor driver. If you buy motors with integrated drivers then you wouldn't want or need KStep.

    Regards




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    Default Re: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    --
    -- Tom,

    --- I just have to ask, Can you please advise on the KFLOP connection to these servos?

    NEMA 23 Closed Loop Stepper Motor System-Hybrid Servo Kit, 32 bit DSP Based: 282 oz-in
    NEMA 23 283 oz-in (2.0 Nm) Easy Servo Motor; Fully Closed Position Loop with
    Integrated 4,000 CPR (1,000-line) Encoder; 20-50VDC/6A Peak, KL-5056H


    Web Site Link:
    Driver Manual Link:
    Hybrid Motor Manual Link:

    Thank you once again for the support. I really want to make sure before I purchase.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    Hi Pete,

    ....
    KStep is a stepper motor driver. If you buy motors with integrated drivers then you wouldn't want or need KStep.

    Regards




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    Default Re: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    Hi Pete,

    Those would connect to KFLOP as Step/Dir drives. The drive inputs are 5V opto couplers so you would use KFLOP's open collector output mode as shown on page 6 of their manual.

    See:
    Step and Direction Setup

    But actually page 3 of their manual states that the step pulse should be longer than 10us. KFLOP only provides a maximum pulse width of 3.78us and so would be incompatible. However I wonder if that is a typo. Their main spec says maximum 200KHz operation which would be impossible with 10us pulses.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    I think if you ultimately want a retrofitted knee mill I would probably put your time and money towards that now. Wont be alot harder to figure out then the Taig and you will have a much more capable machine. Rather then waste money on the taig, put the money towards better components for your knee mill. A knee mill with Kflop will be a great machine for not too much money. There will be tons of support here to get you going.

    My first machining experiance was with a Taig cnc about 15 years ago. Mine had steppers and Xylotex (i think) stepper driver. What a nightmare with those electronics. Ridiculously slow and would be constantly loosing a few steps a cycle and occasionally would stall, loose a move and then continue on incrementally from the wrong place. I lost all confidence in open loop steppers after that, never again will i waste time with that. Make sure you have encoders whether you go stepper or servo. I ended up replacing steppers with electrocraft E543 DC servos (still available cheap on e-bay) in a 2:1 ratio and gecko g340s and it never missed a beat after that. Still fairly slow and the taig is not accurate or rigid at all, but at least the servos went where they were supposed too. I still have the old Taig. Actually used it to make some small parts a little over a year ago and it still worked fine.



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    Default

    Hello mmurray70,

    Thanks for the reply. Apart from Tom, you are the only one who actully replyed and offered sound advice.
    I am looking at a Tree Journeyman 325 CNC with a fried controller. And I agree with you that spending the money on what is needed for that retrofit right off the bat makes more sense. However, I am abit concerned, just like I only got two people to reply to this thread .... once I start on that knee mill retrofit I may not get much help. Then I sit with 4600 lbs. Of unusable steel in my garage.
    I was hoping on using the existing DC sevos on this Tree 325 with Kflop.
    I have to give this guy with the Tree mill an answer in the next few days if I am coming to pick it up.
    Have you heard of any success story of someone retrofitting these machines with Kflop and the existing servos.

    Thanks again,
    Petew



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    Default Re: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    I dont have any experiance with that machine, but most people are able to reuse old motors and drives with kanalog. Even if you cant use original motors and drives for some reason, you could probably buy new servos and drives for the cost of what your planning on spending on your Taig.

    You will probably get more help once you get going with it. Tom will answer all your questions for sure anyway. If your willing to put the time and effort into it im sure you will get it working. There is alot to learn though, it wont be a one night project for sure but just take it one step at a time and you will get there eventually.

    Edit: Just googled your machine, looks nice. Seems very solid for a knee mill and the cat40 spindle is a huge plus. Way more rigid and if you ever buy a VMC down the road you will already have a collection of holders started. Lots of Y travel for a knee mill too which is very helpful.

    Last edited by mmurray70; 09-12-2017 at 11:00 PM.


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    Default Re: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    I googled and found this:



    Note that in theYoutube comments he posted a nice set of schematics for what he did?

    He is doing Analog to the existing drives.

    HTH
    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: Taig CNC-Controller Replacement-Dynomotion Suggestion

    Hello Tom,

    Yes ... this is actually what I want to do.
    However, I don't really know to how read these schematics.
    But I am sure I will learn.
    Thanks,
    Pete W.

    Quote Originally Posted by TomKerekes View Post
    I googled and found this:



    Note that in theYoutube comments he posted a nice set of schematics for what he did?

    He is doing Analog to the existing drives.

    HTH
    Regards


    Last edited by PeterTheWolf; 09-13-2017 at 08:49 PM.


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