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    Default KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    I have an urgent problem. When I shut down my machine control system running win 10, it forced an update. I have previously tried to turn the updates off without luck, and was pretty concerned with the possible problems later today. Really unhappy that now KmotionCNC is crashing with a DLL error and unexpected disconnection from kflop. I cannot complete my initialization without crash.

    Has anyone else had problems today, or know already of a solutions?

    I tried re- installing the drivers with no luck.


    Thanks windows' update!

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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Just got the blue screen windows crash while trying to load KmotionCNC. Pretty sure I don't have a hardware problem now.

    I made the mistake of yet again delaying taking my shop network offline yesterday morning (disconnecting from the internet). Such a dumb donkey.



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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Hi MadTooler,

    Sorry to hear that.

    What DLL Error do you get?

    What Version of KMotion are you running?

    When does the error happen?

    What Version of W10 are you running? (Run winver from a Windows Command Prompt)

    Any Anti-Virus running?

    Is Windows Defender running?

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Further study...

    I am able to run my initialization script shortly after starting KmotionCNC without immediate crash as long as I do not have the servo power on. When I actually power up my servos I get the error "KmotionDLL (Not Responding)... Read Failed - Auto Disconnect." A couple of times now it has gone to the windows blue screen and windows has restarted right after the Kmotion error notice. Otherwise, trying to close the error locks up for a bit then eventually completely closes KmotionCNC. It looks like if I have Kmotion running in the background, it does not close out.

    Additionally, with the Kflop still powered up from the last crash, I can turn off my servo power and then restart KmotionCNC, run the initialization, get feedback from manually moving encoders, but then again crashes as soon as I power up the servos. With this cycle, a different error popped up "Kmotion... Error: Status Record Size mismatch... Disable further status updates?... Yes/No." Similar results with lockup and crash of KmotionCNC.

    I have a Kflop with SnapAmp and Kanalog. DC servos with the encoders connected to the SnapAmp. The encoders do read when I manually turn the screws. As soon as I power them up with my manual switch, the system fails.

    Kmotion & KmotionCNC version: 4.33

    Kflop driver 4.34

    Windows 10 version: 1607 (os build 14393.953)

    AVG antivirus free version: 17.2.3419.0

    Windows Defender not running.

    It was running fine yesterday before the update. Does any of this sound like a new hardware issue?



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    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    I just restarted a W10 64 system and it did install a number of new updates:
    Mainly:
    Update for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB3150513)
    Update for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB4013418)
    Cumulative Update for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB4013429)


    but I haven't yet seen a problem. I don't have a SnapAmp or Motors handy.

    I tested:

    Kmotion & KmotionCNC version: 4.33

    Kflop driver 4.34h

    Windows 10 version: 1607 (os build 14393.953)

    No AntiVirus

    Windows Defender on

    Your error occurring when servo power turns on would tend to point point toward a hardware problem.

    Your original description sounded like a bad, missing, or updated DLL was causing a program crash. But your new description sounds more like the program and software are executing correctly and correctly reporting a problem communicating to KFLOP (but then not handling it very gracefully). That wouldn't explain a blue screen though.

    BTW you should be able to uninstall the updates to eliminate that as a possibility:

    Windows Update - Update History - Uninstall Updates

    Otherwise I would try to troubleshoot and narrow down how applying power is causing KFLOP to reset or crash or not be able to communicate. There might be a broken GND or shield or short? Maybe try disconnecting the power from one side of SnapAmp or the other. Or disconnecting the Motors and re-connecting the Motors one at a time? Note: never make any changes with power on. Can you apply Motor power if SnapAmp hasn't been configured/enabled?

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Thanks Tom.

    Kflop does not appear to be crashing or resetting. It actually keeps the encoder counts/DRO between (KmotionCNC) crashes as well, and does not seem to care about power being sent to snapamp or not. I will check if it keeps running from within kmotion.

    I tried to restore windows, but it was not available due to the priority of the updates. I will see about removing the updates individually.

    I also have a couple of backup win xp systems I can plug in to check if the control is physically functioning properly.

    Thanks for your fast responses. I will let you know what I find out.



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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    And the gross offender is...

    "Update for Windows 10 Version 1607 for x64-based Systems (KB3150513)"

    That dirty dog was the trigger for the problem. It was the last installed, first to try, and repeatably an offender. After uninstalling and reinstalling for testing, it actually would cause my servo power to trip continuously without the dll error, but still was totally jacked. The way I have my system configured is for both logic and manual to be enabled for the servo power contactor to be energized, but I can also override manually ( I knew that option would come in handy at some point ) which allowed for motor commands to function. As soon as I uninstalled the downgrade/update, it worked again.

    Guess who pulled the internet from their machine control network now?

    Thanks Tom. Please let me know if this in some way still indicates I may have an underlying wiring/hardware issue.



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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    After further use, I also found that my AVG antivirus appears to be interfering with KmotionCNC responsiveness. I found hitting any of my buttons, or running mcodes from the prompt, were severely delayed. Even the pause and Estop buttons were extremely lagged. I think even custom mcodes from within my running gcode were lagged, but I need to retest to confirm that one.

    My first thought was some other MS update was the culprit, but after uninstalling back a few months without any results, I excluded all of my Kmotion and CNC file locations from my AVG anitvirus scan and it started working properly again. I am making an assumption the scanner was checking the C programs (probably mostly my customized programs) before they were allowed to run.

    It looks like the dynomotion software has not had an official patch or version release since 12/01/15. Is there any near future update that may make it more Win 10 safe?



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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Unfortunately same problem here; I was able to work for a year with WIndows 10 and kflop+ mach3 but after some windows upgrades, I am not sure wich one as I did'n use cnc for some time, now it is impossible to let windows see the drivers or after following the dynamotion windows 10 installation suggestions it was done but not after the reboot that loose again the seen drivers. Now for working I use a virtual box with windows 7 installed and it is ok but very very annoying. I guest that a patch for windows 10 and kflop is needed as lot of peoples is going to migrate to that OS, or will change soon a computer and.....may be also migrate to mach4, but it is another story



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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    I have found a solution that works great for me , for now. I suspected that something with windows defender was involved, even it was deactivated in control panel. Following suggestions from here

    How to permanently disable Windows Defender on Windows 10 | Windows Central

    adding a voice (DWORD) in registry HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Win dows Defender

    calling it DisableAntiSpyware and assigning a value of 1, after reboot it was possible to install kflop drivers. Hope that will help but I no assume any responsability in disabiliting the defender on others computer. Looking foward to read some comments and feedback if same solution is good for anyone

    Last edited by pedro1956; 04-29-2017 at 06:24 AM.


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Great thread, especially considering I am designing a router with the KFLOP in mind and was going to see about creating a standalone controller with a pocket sized win10 pc and touchscreen.
    Now.
    Is there a way to acrually save topics from within cnczone or tapatalk? 😂
    Also, good luck with any future win10 problems and please, please keep us updated!

    Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    While Win10 in general is much better than Win8, it's single biggest failing (IMO) is the inability to stop the auto-updates. It makes it impossible to count on a stable system. When I first built my dedicate CNC PC, Win8 was the then current system so that what I used. It's pretty much dedicated to the CNC running Kmotion, I have auto-updates turned off and it's only rarely network connected...I'm not too worried about viruses on it. While I would like to have all my various PC's at the same level, as long as Kmotiion runs on Win8, I'll stick with it. Or when MS decides to let their users/customers have more control over their own systems...then I'll consider upgrading.

    rr



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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Hey guys. Sorry to be so delayed in response. I didn't see any notifications there was activity.

    After I had taken my PC offline, it worked fine for the most part.

    Unfortunately, I let things update just in case that global ransom ware was a potential issue, now I have super crappy issues. First, KmotionCNC crashed and blue screened win 10. After it started back up, my KmotionCNC configuration/tool table file was destroyed, among others. I did have all but the very latest configurations backed up, so not too much damage beyond shock and awe, and more of my time down the drain. After uninstalling all MS updates back to early March, it ran once then after the next power up it returned to the same error I had at the beginning of this thread at power up of my servos ("Read Failed - Auto Disconnect" and then crashes windows entirely). Basically, my entire system is a very obnoxious boat anchor, for now at least.

    Are there any updates in the works at Dynomotion to combat the MS arrogant approach that fast and forced updates are somehow productive? Seeing how updates are the apparent cause of the pain, does that question itself seem a bit conflicted?

    I am wondering if this is all down to a USB driver issue.

    The story I have been told is Win 10 Pro can have updates turned off. However, from my research that falls short of true, since I cannot find the option to turn off what MS may consider critical safety updates. Therefore, I cannot recommend anyone running a PC with Win 10 with any updates beyond the initial installation dating later than the beginning of this year, and to make damn sure the system is never connected to the internet. I will just fall short of saying Win 10 is not a reliable or suitable OS for CNC applications, although that would be a verdict if made by others that I could not dispute.

    If Dynomotion has any direction as to Win 10 safe or not and the proper setup, or if their products should be limited to prior OS's, please provide direction.

    Thank you.



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    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Hi MadTooler,

    KMotionCNC/KFLOP should work with W10 and latest updates. I'm not sure what the issue is with your system. I wouldn't recommend turning off Windows Updates. Only defer them to a time between Jobs. Of course we have no control over what Microsoft does.

    It isn't clear to me from your description what is happening. Can you go step-by-step and tell us what is happening? Are the drivers loaded in Device Manager when KFLOP is connected? Does KMotionCNC run? Connect? Is Windows really crashing? Blue Screen? Or locks up?

    It should be theoretically impossible for any Application (ie KMotionCNC) to crash Windows. So more likely it is a USB Driver issue with your system.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Tom,

    The system is the same as noted earlier in this thread, along with the same series of events. Here it is again:

    Boot up win 10
    Power up Kflop with the snapamp and wait a moment to give it a chance to boot
    Plug in USB cable and wait for windows to recognize (yes it does show connected in device manager)
    Start KmotionCNC
    Run initialization program within KmotionCNC (usually everything is still OK at this point)
    Power up Servos
    KmotionCNC error pops up "DLL error... Read Failed - Auto Disconnect"
    System hangs for 30 seconds to a couple minutes
    Windows Blue Screen and/or simply reboots on its own

    The difference between this typical process vs. when it destroyed KmotionCNC config files was I powered up the servos before I started KmotionCNC, and it had all of the win10 updates installed.

    This is absolutely and definitively a win10 updated related break. Is it directly related to my USB ports and the system itself, probably, but it was first triggered by the specific win 10 update I noted earlier in the thread. With that update, I was able to uninstall, run without problem, reinstall, see the problem, and repeat this issue.

    Also a critical note, it is when the snapamp has the servos powered that the event is triggered. I believe you mentioned before that your test did not include a snapamp. If not, you may not have encountered the problem.

    I have been able to hit this with a big enough hammer that I can restart enough times and eventually find a window of opportunity for the system to run. When I figure out what sequence is actually allowing this to work, I will also share that info.

    If possible, please confirm with your MS pals that your driver has not been compromised. Additionally, if there is any log file or video you would like me to create, please detail it and I will do my best to produce it.

    Any chance you plan to port your software over to Linux?

    Thanks again.

    Last edited by MadTooler; 07-07-2017 at 04:55 PM. Reason: corrected when usb cable was plugged in


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    It is likely a noise issue with your servo power supply. Or possibly a voltage spike that travels back to the pc through the usb. The pc would lose connection and Windows could crash in the process. Where and how power and ground are used in a system is very important. I won't rule out windows but the list of events leading up to your failure points to the last thing you did before the failure. That is turning on the servo power supply. Hope you get it solved.

    Ben

    Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk



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    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Hi MadTooler,

    Very strange. I tend to agree with Ben. Because KMotionCNC/Windows/PC should have no clue you powered up your servos how could it cause a crash if it wasn't noise?

    I suppose noise could cause indeterminate results dependent on software versions (updates) which might explain your apparent connection to updates.

    I would expect a huge current surge if you enable your Axes with power off and then turn servo power on. I don't really understand your other scenarios where you do things in a more normal sequence. If noise is causing your PC to crash then it may well cause recently accessed files to be corrupted.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Thanks for the replies.

    I did have numerous noise issues that were inherited from the original build of my machine. After a lot of extensive and thorough rework, I have had no known noise issues. While I cannot at this time say there is never a surge in some fantastic way, I would not agree that it is the dominant, or even typical, offender. Since I was able to pin point the prior win 10 update that was 100% causing the crash when installed, then immediately everything was fine upon uninstall, I am completely confident (I do not make that statement lightly) that this is primarily software/computer hardware conflict issue. I may plug in a desktop machine soon to see if it fairs any better than my laptop.

    That said, I am super open to monitoring my system for spikes upon startup. Do you have a suggested method to make that reading?

    More evidence to support a spike as a non typical trigger, when the system is actually stable as it is for this moment after about a dozen crashes, I can kill the power to my servos, which also disables the axes, then power them back up either enabling axes or power in any order without effect. I will take note of your point that a huge surge would be expected if axes are enable then the servo power is applied, and change my startup procedure.

    Thanks again to everyone for their help. It has all helped a great deal. Even with suggestions that may appear to me at the moment to be outside probable, I always keep them in mind and as a possibility to be found true. It is so easy to be humbled by these silly machines when you think you have every gremlin under your thumb.

    Thanks.



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    Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Hi MadTooler,

    I appreciate your attitude and your reasoning. The problem certainly is bizarre and somewhat defies logic.

    I would like to point out one thing. Even though changing software back and forth 100% correlates with having a problem or not does not 100% prove that the software is the cause of the problem. Valid software changes might make slight timing changes, memory, or file usage such that a hardware problem manifests itself in completely different manner. It might be to your advantage to now have a configuration that consistently crashes so you can more easily find the real problem rather than with a configuration that masks the problem.

    The biggest clue for me is that I believe you said that even not running KMotionCNC and therefore with no communication between the PC and KFLOP switching on Servo Power crashed the PC.

    I certainly could be totally wrong here.

    Regarding monitoring for spikes: I'm not aware of any general method. Noise is complex. You would have to consider your grounding topology and look for ground loops and such. Maybe scope grounds looking for spikes and differences. Do you have a USB isolator?

    Regarding after the system is stable you can power up in any order without problems: That is strange. Maybe once the axes are in position and they are disabled/enabled then if they haven't moved then there is no sudden jump and current surge? You might try moving them to see if it causes the problem.

    What Version of KMotion are you running now?

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Thanks, Tom.

    Your point on the possibility of other variables being altered to a point of hardware problem exposure is understandable. It may well be the case. With my main observation of the update 100% triggering the issue, I was cautiously trying to state it as the main culprit/trigger, with the underlying acknowledgment it may be bringing to light hiccups with the overall system that were simply dormant or bypassed prior. I also very much agree it is better and easier to track a consistent problem than a floating sorta happens issue, although both suck when the machine is down and my time is consumed.

    I need to make a clarification. The final powering of the servos cannot happen until it is done by Kflop through SnapAmp IO's. I have a two stage system where an E-switch controls a contactor that has to be closed for a second contactor, that is controlled by IO's and a solid state relay, to be closed. Therefore, I never truly had power to the servos until the initialization script is run by KmotionCNC. I will attach my initialization (runs on thread 1) and the re-enable script (runs on thread 2) I run when I have hit the KmotionCNC stop button ( renamed to txt files from c ).

    One additional note here, kflop has a dedicated power supply. It is not powered by usb.

    I spent a lot of time working out grounding loops and believe it is good ( I will still be on the look out for any other possible errors in this regard ). Every power supply should be isolated and star grounded ( all prior testing showed full isolation, but I have not been able to make any tests during operation to confirm under that condition ).

    *** There is only one exception known to my ground and isolation, my laptop. As with most PCs, it does not fully isolate earth ground, therefore the usb is not fully isolated from earth ground either. I just tried running with the laptop on battery only to see if that makes a difference, and it seems to be stable, as well as when I plug into a different AC outlet. If there is a spike issue, it may be coming in through the AC supply to the laptop. I do have a decent surge protector on the laptop, but with all of the lightening storms and wacky industrial power fluctuations here, maybe it is no longer any good. Something possibly related to this, when I built the system, I was short an quench arc/noise snubber on one of my contactors running on a 120vAC coil (could still be the powering of the servos and the supply to the servos that is the real culprit since I would usually expect noise from the contactor coil when it is de-energized, not when it is energized ). I will try installing a snubber and see if it makes a difference.

    The AC to the laptop may be a significant part of the puzzle, but why it only popped up when OS changes were made is wild to me. Best guess is as you suggested with some of the timing or other impacts that could have made this apparent.

    I was not aware of usb isolators. I will plan on getting one of those as well.

    I have tried moving the axes in different conditions without any noticeable problems when the system is actually up and stable. Side note... It is not definitive, but with the initial presentation of this issue, I was kinda noticing if I could quickly move the axes before the system crashed, it would stay running. That was never a consistent result to say it was anything real.

    Kmotion & KmotionCNC version: 4.33

    Kflop driver 4.34

    Thanks again and have a great weekend.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by MadTooler; 07-09-2017 at 05:11 AM.


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KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?