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Thread: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

  1. #13
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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Hey guys. Sorry to be so delayed in response. I didn't see any notifications there was activity.

    After I had taken my PC offline, it worked fine for the most part.

    Unfortunately, I let things update just in case that global ransom ware was a potential issue, now I have super crappy issues. First, KmotionCNC crashed and blue screened win 10. After it started back up, my KmotionCNC configuration/tool table file was destroyed, among others. I did have all but the very latest configurations backed up, so not too much damage beyond shock and awe, and more of my time down the drain. After uninstalling all MS updates back to early March, it ran once then after the next power up it returned to the same error I had at the beginning of this thread at power up of my servos ("Read Failed - Auto Disconnect" and then crashes windows entirely). Basically, my entire system is a very obnoxious boat anchor, for now at least.

    Are there any updates in the works at Dynomotion to combat the MS arrogant approach that fast and forced updates are somehow productive? Seeing how updates are the apparent cause of the pain, does that question itself seem a bit conflicted?

    I am wondering if this is all down to a USB driver issue.

    The story I have been told is Win 10 Pro can have updates turned off. However, from my research that falls short of true, since I cannot find the option to turn off what MS may consider critical safety updates. Therefore, I cannot recommend anyone running a PC with Win 10 with any updates beyond the initial installation dating later than the beginning of this year, and to make damn sure the system is never connected to the internet. I will just fall short of saying Win 10 is not a reliable or suitable OS for CNC applications, although that would be a verdict if made by others that I could not dispute.

    If Dynomotion has any direction as to Win 10 safe or not and the proper setup, or if their products should be limited to prior OS's, please provide direction.

    Thank you.



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    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Hi MadTooler,

    KMotionCNC/KFLOP should work with W10 and latest updates. I'm not sure what the issue is with your system. I wouldn't recommend turning off Windows Updates. Only defer them to a time between Jobs. Of course we have no control over what Microsoft does.

    It isn't clear to me from your description what is happening. Can you go step-by-step and tell us what is happening? Are the drivers loaded in Device Manager when KFLOP is connected? Does KMotionCNC run? Connect? Is Windows really crashing? Blue Screen? Or locks up?

    It should be theoretically impossible for any Application (ie KMotionCNC) to crash Windows. So more likely it is a USB Driver issue with your system.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Tom,

    The system is the same as noted earlier in this thread, along with the same series of events. Here it is again:

    Boot up win 10
    Power up Kflop with the snapamp and wait a moment to give it a chance to boot
    Plug in USB cable and wait for windows to recognize (yes it does show connected in device manager)
    Start KmotionCNC
    Run initialization program within KmotionCNC (usually everything is still OK at this point)
    Power up Servos
    KmotionCNC error pops up "DLL error... Read Failed - Auto Disconnect"
    System hangs for 30 seconds to a couple minutes
    Windows Blue Screen and/or simply reboots on its own

    The difference between this typical process vs. when it destroyed KmotionCNC config files was I powered up the servos before I started KmotionCNC, and it had all of the win10 updates installed.

    This is absolutely and definitively a win10 updated related break. Is it directly related to my USB ports and the system itself, probably, but it was first triggered by the specific win 10 update I noted earlier in the thread. With that update, I was able to uninstall, run without problem, reinstall, see the problem, and repeat this issue.

    Also a critical note, it is when the snapamp has the servos powered that the event is triggered. I believe you mentioned before that your test did not include a snapamp. If not, you may not have encountered the problem.

    I have been able to hit this with a big enough hammer that I can restart enough times and eventually find a window of opportunity for the system to run. When I figure out what sequence is actually allowing this to work, I will also share that info.

    If possible, please confirm with your MS pals that your driver has not been compromised. Additionally, if there is any log file or video you would like me to create, please detail it and I will do my best to produce it.

    Any chance you plan to port your software over to Linux?

    Thanks again.

    Last edited by MadTooler; 07-07-2017 at 04:55 PM. Reason: corrected when usb cable was plugged in


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    It is likely a noise issue with your servo power supply. Or possibly a voltage spike that travels back to the pc through the usb. The pc would lose connection and Windows could crash in the process. Where and how power and ground are used in a system is very important. I won't rule out windows but the list of events leading up to your failure points to the last thing you did before the failure. That is turning on the servo power supply. Hope you get it solved.

    Ben

    Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk



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    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Hi MadTooler,

    Very strange. I tend to agree with Ben. Because KMotionCNC/Windows/PC should have no clue you powered up your servos how could it cause a crash if it wasn't noise?

    I suppose noise could cause indeterminate results dependent on software versions (updates) which might explain your apparent connection to updates.

    I would expect a huge current surge if you enable your Axes with power off and then turn servo power on. I don't really understand your other scenarios where you do things in a more normal sequence. If noise is causing your PC to crash then it may well cause recently accessed files to be corrupted.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Thanks for the replies.

    I did have numerous noise issues that were inherited from the original build of my machine. After a lot of extensive and thorough rework, I have had no known noise issues. While I cannot at this time say there is never a surge in some fantastic way, I would not agree that it is the dominant, or even typical, offender. Since I was able to pin point the prior win 10 update that was 100% causing the crash when installed, then immediately everything was fine upon uninstall, I am completely confident (I do not make that statement lightly) that this is primarily software/computer hardware conflict issue. I may plug in a desktop machine soon to see if it fairs any better than my laptop.

    That said, I am super open to monitoring my system for spikes upon startup. Do you have a suggested method to make that reading?

    More evidence to support a spike as a non typical trigger, when the system is actually stable as it is for this moment after about a dozen crashes, I can kill the power to my servos, which also disables the axes, then power them back up either enabling axes or power in any order without effect. I will take note of your point that a huge surge would be expected if axes are enable then the servo power is applied, and change my startup procedure.

    Thanks again to everyone for their help. It has all helped a great deal. Even with suggestions that may appear to me at the moment to be outside probable, I always keep them in mind and as a possibility to be found true. It is so easy to be humbled by these silly machines when you think you have every gremlin under your thumb.

    Thanks.



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    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Hi MadTooler,

    I appreciate your attitude and your reasoning. The problem certainly is bizarre and somewhat defies logic.

    I would like to point out one thing. Even though changing software back and forth 100% correlates with having a problem or not does not 100% prove that the software is the cause of the problem. Valid software changes might make slight timing changes, memory, or file usage such that a hardware problem manifests itself in completely different manner. It might be to your advantage to now have a configuration that consistently crashes so you can more easily find the real problem rather than with a configuration that masks the problem.

    The biggest clue for me is that I believe you said that even not running KMotionCNC and therefore with no communication between the PC and KFLOP switching on Servo Power crashed the PC.

    I certainly could be totally wrong here.

    Regarding monitoring for spikes: I'm not aware of any general method. Noise is complex. You would have to consider your grounding topology and look for ground loops and such. Maybe scope grounds looking for spikes and differences. Do you have a USB isolator?

    Regarding after the system is stable you can power up in any order without problems: That is strange. Maybe once the axes are in position and they are disabled/enabled then if they haven't moved then there is no sudden jump and current surge? You might try moving them to see if it causes the problem.

    What Version of KMotion are you running now?

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Thanks, Tom.

    Your point on the possibility of other variables being altered to a point of hardware problem exposure is understandable. It may well be the case. With my main observation of the update 100% triggering the issue, I was cautiously trying to state it as the main culprit/trigger, with the underlying acknowledgment it may be bringing to light hiccups with the overall system that were simply dormant or bypassed prior. I also very much agree it is better and easier to track a consistent problem than a floating sorta happens issue, although both suck when the machine is down and my time is consumed.

    I need to make a clarification. The final powering of the servos cannot happen until it is done by Kflop through SnapAmp IO's. I have a two stage system where an E-switch controls a contactor that has to be closed for a second contactor, that is controlled by IO's and a solid state relay, to be closed. Therefore, I never truly had power to the servos until the initialization script is run by KmotionCNC. I will attach my initialization (runs on thread 1) and the re-enable script (runs on thread 2) I run when I have hit the KmotionCNC stop button ( renamed to txt files from c ).

    One additional note here, kflop has a dedicated power supply. It is not powered by usb.

    I spent a lot of time working out grounding loops and believe it is good ( I will still be on the look out for any other possible errors in this regard ). Every power supply should be isolated and star grounded ( all prior testing showed full isolation, but I have not been able to make any tests during operation to confirm under that condition ).

    *** There is only one exception known to my ground and isolation, my laptop. As with most PCs, it does not fully isolate earth ground, therefore the usb is not fully isolated from earth ground either. I just tried running with the laptop on battery only to see if that makes a difference, and it seems to be stable, as well as when I plug into a different AC outlet. If there is a spike issue, it may be coming in through the AC supply to the laptop. I do have a decent surge protector on the laptop, but with all of the lightening storms and wacky industrial power fluctuations here, maybe it is no longer any good. Something possibly related to this, when I built the system, I was short an quench arc/noise snubber on one of my contactors running on a 120vAC coil (could still be the powering of the servos and the supply to the servos that is the real culprit since I would usually expect noise from the contactor coil when it is de-energized, not when it is energized ). I will try installing a snubber and see if it makes a difference.

    The AC to the laptop may be a significant part of the puzzle, but why it only popped up when OS changes were made is wild to me. Best guess is as you suggested with some of the timing or other impacts that could have made this apparent.

    I was not aware of usb isolators. I will plan on getting one of those as well.

    I have tried moving the axes in different conditions without any noticeable problems when the system is actually up and stable. Side note... It is not definitive, but with the initial presentation of this issue, I was kinda noticing if I could quickly move the axes before the system crashed, it would stay running. That was never a consistent result to say it was anything real.

    Kmotion & KmotionCNC version: 4.33

    Kflop driver 4.34

    Thanks again and have a great weekend.

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by MadTooler; 07-09-2017 at 05:11 AM.


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Well, after hours of updates, I have let my system update win 10 to current. Build 1703 I think.

    It is stable when I am on laptop battery power only, or when I am plugged into 120vAC power away from the machines tap. When I plug back into the same feed that is running to the machine, as with my initial setup, the error pops and the PC crashes and reboots.

    It will be a real pain to run a separate AC line to my PC, before that, it seems I need to figure out what the assumed spike is, and smooth it as much as possible. I will install a quench arc on the contactor without, get my hands on a USB isolator for good measure, and look into a scope to further diagnose where the spike is originating.

    Please advise if my initialization is out of order or problematic if possible.

    Regarding the USB isolator. any suggestions on a solid brand, specs, or model? Does it affect the length of cable between kflop and pc (I am at 2M)?

    Thanks to all.



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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Tom,

    The machine sat for a few days and now it is having the issue all of the time.

    I will be trying another PC running XP to see if it makes a difference.

    I have also looked over my grounds without any findings of a problem. The only task I have left to try on that end is watching a scope while it is all running. However, the error is much delayed now, as much as a minute after powering servos and moving around a bit. It has definitely changed for the severe.

    Please test this on your end with the snapamp. It needs to start to working better, because it is too light to work well as an anchor.



  11. #23
    Gold Member TomKerekes's Avatar
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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Hi MadTooler,

    It is stable when I am on laptop battery power only, or when I am plugged into 120vAC power away from the machines tap. When I plug back into the same feed that is running to the machine, as with my initial setup, the error pops and the PC crashes and reboots.
    That would seem a pretty clear indication you have a noise or grounding problem.


    Regarding the USB isolator. any suggestions on a solid brand, specs, or model? Does it affect the length of cable between kflop and pc (I am at 2M)?
    See:
    Noise - Typical Problems and Resolutions - Dynomotion

    I'm not sure what you mean by affecting the cable length. I'd suggest inserting it near the PC to block noise picked up in the cable from entering the PC and keeping both cables as short as possible.

    Please advise if my initialization is out of order or problematic if possible.
    It looks like you activate your contactor and then immediately enable the servos with:

    // turn on servo power contactor
    SetBit(80); // set a bit high (bit must be defined as an output, see SetBitDirection, then use ClearBit to turn off)

    // axis setup for kmotioncnc
    // Axis enabling
    EnableAxis(0); // enable the Axis at the current encoder position
    EnableAxis(1);
    EnableAxis(2);

    You might insert a delay in order for the contactor to activate and power to be stable before Enabling the Axis to have them attempt to move the motors.

    Please test this on your end with the snapamp. It needs to start to working better, because it is too light to work well as an anchor.
    I think it is unlikely I would be able to reproduce the problem without your supplies, contactors, wiring, grounding, laptop, etc... If you could demonstrate some minimal configuration without those that shows a problem I would be willing to try it.

    Regards

    TK
    http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?

    Tom,

    While it WAS seemingly not acting up under laptop battery power, or other AC outlet, it now acts up 100% with any power source. Additionally, it does not happen immediately upon powering the servos. It may be a minute or so later. With no change in the system wiring or updates, why would it now be a delayed response if it was merely noise only at servo enabling?

    I actually had already added a small delay between contactor and and axis enable with an updated program that also checks that my manual switch for servo power is also on before enabling. Currently at 0.25 seconds. Should I make it more?

    I had to abandon the win 10 laptop. I ran it from a desktop running XP pro 32 bit. No problems. It is also running from the AC outlets I was originally using, again without issue.

    Since I had already done such extensive noise reduction efforts and the XP machine seems not to care (at least not yet), unless I later am able to find any noise when I finally get my hands on a scope, I am still more convinced this is a laptop usb port, usb driver, and win 10 conflict driven issue more than a case of noise. I will continue to monitor and update with any new findings.

    Even without my possible hardware issue, I stand by my belief that win 10 is unsuitable for CNC control due to the current MS model of perpetual forced updates (even with an offline system it is rough as with current issues such as networking due to known bugs which means it will continue to be a maintenance headache as well). Regardless of how great of a product the Dynomotion components may be, a constantly changing system controller, due to OS or other, could very realistically end in significant property and personal loss.

    Is there any plan to make the full Kmotion/CNC interface run on linux?



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KmotionCNC... Did the windows 10 update kill you?
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