KFLOP/Kanalog set up


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Thread: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

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    Default KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Ok,
    Followed along the two threads mentioned to help people get started. X Axis win!! now when I was trying to go back and get Y axis under control it just would not work. I had my encoder for Y on channel set 1 but it seemed to be running with the X axis. So I moved it to channel set 2 (a2,a-2,b2,b-2). Almost forgot to move my sig/com to 2, fixed it so everything matched up. No joy. When I input the DAC2=100 it moves, DAC2=0 it creeps just like DAC0 did. Encoder count on the axis screen seems to go up or down with dac2=10 vs dac2=-10.
    Now here is where it goes wrong. When I go to config/flash page, load the kanaloginitialpid.mot file again. Change over to step response,, check channel 2 hit zero, zeros then moves to 35, and enable. When I hit the "move" button, it moves X, not Y which should be channel 2 right?
    Rechecked the process twice.
    Steps work perfect up to the enabling of channel 2, which is y in my cases. Once I do that my Y encoder stops responding to DAC2 issued moves. The moves happen just the encoder doesn't seem to care.. On the step response page the "move" button on channel 0 and channel 2 only move X axis.
    Rechecked my wiring, a,a-, b, b- 5volt, and ground.

    Any ideas?

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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Hi cjsamples,

    I think our software/documents over use the word channel which causes confusion. There are Motor Axis Channels, DAC Output Channels, and Encoder Input Channels which are all different things.

    Any KFLOP Motor Axis Channel can be configured to make use of any DAC or any Encoder by specifying the Input and Output channels. See:
    Configuration Screen

    The KanalogInitialPID.mot file is an example of a Kanalog Axis using DAC #0 and Encoder #0. It seems you are loading it into multiple Motor Axes Channels so multiple axes are all trying to use DAC 0 and Encoder 0 as their I/O devices.

    For your Second Motor:

    #1 select Axis Channel #1
    #2 load the KanalogInitialPID.mot configuration
    #3 Change the Input Channel and Output Channel settings to the Encoder and DAC you want that motor to use (ie. #1 and #1)

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default

    Right on the money Tom. I figured it was something I was doing wrong. I had that config page pulled up on your site when you replied.
    That one was easy, next one will be much harder......THC.
    Chris



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Tom,
    I am having an issue getting the Kmotion to see my limit switch. Checking it on the Digital I/O it is showing up on 136 first opto where I put it. It is normally open as that is what ESAB used. Put 136 in the config screen and checked "watch limit" but not "stop when low". It is powered by 24 volt and when it makes, it goes high (24). I click the switch while jogging the axis and it doesn't stop. Afraid to run it to the limit if I can't trick it myself.
    Thanks for the help, I will get better at this.



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    I got the limit switches working. That config and flash screen can trip you up.
    Is there an easy way to reverse direction of an axis? My X is always positive but my Y seems to run negative going toward the switch and reverse of my jog buttons. Once again, I am sure it is something simple.



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Hi cjsamples

    Is there an easy way to reverse direction of an axis? My X is always positive but my Y seems to run negative going toward the switch and reverse of my jog buttons.
    See:
    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Thought I had read all of the Faqs but I missed a few. Directions working correctly, homing program modified and working. Wish my plasma lift would come in now.......

    Next on the list:
    1. Figure out how to set Machine Coordinates. Is it something I would set after running a home sequence? Where are Machine coordinates set? I need to create a "load" position since I have a spot for the gantry to move completely out of the way. I am assuming this could be done by inputting an X,Y coordinate or is it easier to put a switch for it to head toward?
    2. Once I have established this position I need to slow down the gantry when it gets close. My table is 10 foot but my rails are almost 16 foot. So if I started slowing it down around 120 inches that would be great. Is there a C program ready to modify for something like that and make a user defined button? You made is possible to have slick features like that. I figure it would read something like
    Jog(0,-10000); // start moving
    while (!ReadBit(8)) ; // wait for switch (input #8) to change (This is where I would need to input a mach coor to tell it to slow down)
    Jog(0,-200); // slow
    (reach actual spot to stop // (130 inches?)
    Jog(0,0) //stop

    3. I have read thru the servo tuning post and want to make sure I am close to where I need to be. My math must be off, I see over 1100 ipm? The machine was maxing around 750 ipm but it was 2003 technology too. It seems to run quick and smooth at these settings.


    Here are the step response screens:
    KFLOP/Kanalog set up-x-resized1-jpg
    KFLOP/Kanalog set up-y-resized1-jpg

    4. Is there a discussion thread on soft limits I can read up on? I think it would be best to have some soft limits where velocity is slowed down just like the load button.

    This is a blast and I am just full of questions so I will try to make a list and ask them together as much as possible.

    Thanks again and have a great Sunday!!



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Hi cjsamples,

    Figure out how to set Machine Coordinates. Is it something I would set after running a home sequence?
    Yes

    I need to create a "load" position since I have a spot for the gantry to move completely out of the way. I am assuming this could be done by inputting an X,Y coordinate or is it easier to put a switch for it to head toward?
    I would think you should just be able to move there based on machine coordinates.

    Once I have established this position I need to slow down the gantry when it gets close. My table is 10 foot but my rails are almost 16 foot. So if I started slowing it down around 120 inches that would be great. Is there a C program ready to modify for something like that and make a user defined button? You made is possible to have slick features like that. I figure it would read something like
    Jog(0,-10000); // start moving
    while (!ReadBit(8)) ; // wait for switch (input #8) to change (This is where I would need to input a mach coor to tell it to slow down)
    Jog(0,-200); // slow
    (reach actual spot to stop // (130 inches?)
    Jog(0,0) //stop
    I don't really understand why you need to slow down. If your machine is tuned properly it should automatically decelerate such to stop at the specified destination. But if you want to slow down sooner at some point along the path you can do so. You could issue moves in KFLOP with Move() and MoveAtVel() commands. The second allows use of a custom velocity rather han the velocity limit set in the Axis parameters. Another move can be issued before a prior move completes and KFLOP will compute a 3rd order blend from where it is on the first trajectory into the 2nd trajectory. So you might do something like:

    Move(0, LoadPosition); //start moving fast to Load Position
    while (ch0->Dest > SlowDownPosition) ; //wait until close
    MoveAtVel(0, LoadPosition, SlowSpeed); //Slow Down
    while (!CheckDone(0)) ; //wait for move to complete

    3. I have read thru the servo tuning post and want to make sure I am close to where I need to be. My math must be off, I see over 1100 ipm? The machine was maxing around 750 ipm but it was 2003 technology too. It seems to run quick and smooth at these settings.
    We would need to know your axis resolutions to check your math.

    This is a blast and I am just full of questions so I will try to make a list and ask them together as much as possible.
    I love your attitude.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Tom,
    I am having trouble understanding the correct syntax for the programming you wrote.
    Move(0, LoadPosition); //start moving fast to Load Position
    while (ch0->Dest > SlowDownPosition) ; //wait until close
    MoveAtVel(0, LoadPosition, SlowSpeed); //Slow Down
    while (!CheckDone(0)) ; //wait for move to complete

    Can you fill in the () with the actual syntax? I can substitute out the numbers once I know the correct spacing, commas, etc. Say my load position is at -400000 and I want to slow down at -350000. I am assuming the Move(0, LoadPosition) line should read
    Move(0, -400000)
    Second line is where I get screwed up:
    while (ch0->Dest > SlowDownPosition) ; //wait until close Should it read: while(ch0->-400000 > -350000)
    Then: MoveAtVel(0, LoadPosition, SlowSpeed); //Slow Down Should it read: MoveAtVel(0, -400000, SlowSpeed); What do I put in place of SlowSpeed to tell it slower?
    Last line: while (!CheckDone(0)) ; //wait for move to complete Nothing to change there right?
    Once I can understand the syntax involved in the C programming along with your //notes I will be squared away. Trying to read thru the Kmotiondef.h I can see a lot of places to get lost in the correct syntax.

    On a side note I moved my velocity and accel back down to 90000 on both axis. My steps per inch are about 9150. I measured it out several times and I need to do a long measure to really get it spot on. So my math says 90000/9150=9.836*60=590 ipm? Close?
    Once I slowed down my axis to 90 and 90 I just ran a simple Move(0, -400000) using it for a "load" button and it did move fast and came to a quick smooth stop. At 180000, it was not so graceful on the stop part.

    When I put in positions, will it always be in steps? Is there another place to see that then on the Axis screen?

    The machine has a 24 Volt DC motor it used for a torch lifter. If I wanted to wire it in to run some super simple non-THC stuff, can you recommend a way of wiring that in? I have some hardware that I will eventually try using to get THC that was installed on the machine previously but that will take a little while.
    Thanks, Chris.



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Hi Chris,

    I am having trouble understanding the correct syntax for the programming you wrote.
    Move(0, LoadPosition); //start moving fast to Load Position
    while (ch0->Dest > SlowDownPosition) ; //wait until close
    MoveAtVel(0, LoadPosition, SlowSpeed); //Slow Down
    while (!CheckDone(0)) ; //wait for move to complete

    Can you fill in the () with the actual syntax?
    If you aren't used to C the syntax can indeed be intimidating. You might read our wiki here:
    KFLOP C Programs - Dynomotion

    But that should be the correct syntax except the values LoadPosition, SlowDownPosition, and SlowSpeed need to be defined for your system. You can either replace those with numbers or to make things more understandable use defines at the beginning of the file like:

    #define LoadPosition -400000.0

    Defines do simple text substitution. Note there is not a semicolon at the end like C Statements have.

    btw most systems home to the left and make that Machine Coordinate zero. So I would expect your LoadPosition to be a positive number close to zero not a negative number. But you are free to setup your machine coordinates however you wish.

    What do I put in place of SlowSpeed to tell it slower?
    Put the speed you want in counts/sec. If your normal speed is 90000 then 10% of that would be 9000

    When I put in positions, will it always be in steps?
    Yes. Everything in KFLOP is in units of steps (or counts)

    Is there another place to see that then on the Axis screen?
    No. Unless you run another Application like KMotionCNC which can show the Machine Position in the DROs in inches or mm.

    The machine has a 24 Volt DC motor it used for a torch lifter. If I wanted to wire it in to run some super simple non-THC stuff, can you recommend a way of wiring that in? I have some hardware that I will eventually try using to get THC that was installed on the machine previously but that will take a little while.
    To control a DC motor you would need some type of Amplifier (ie Analog amplifier connected to Kanalog or a SnapAmp). You would also need some form of feedback (ie encoder). That is unless you are able to run it full on for a fixed time until a switch trips or something similar. In that case a simple relay might work.

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Ok,
    Making some headway now!! Should I define all of these values in the Kmotiondef.h or in the C program for load?

    I am using KmotionCNC at the moment to make sure I have everything working. It seems to be very user friendly for me right now. My buttons on it move my axis in the correct directions in relation to the control panel. That is what had started my whole "axis wrong direction" before. Axis buttons match actual movement. But.........where my limit switches are installed on the machine from ESAB movement seems to be in the negative direction from the home. It looks like it has alternate mounting locations for the ramps that contact the switches, but this is how the machine was operating in its former life. Should I just learn to write everything with -X,-Y coor or is there a way around this?
    KFLOP/Kanalog set up-limitsandload-jpg

    Since I am running KmotionCNC, where can I find the count/sec?

    The plasma lift I have on order has a bump style limit switch on it. It upsets the switch when it contacts metal. I specifically ordered it on the hopes that I could get my ESAB THC working down the road. The ESAB THC worked with the existing motor and somehow maintained height control. I hope to find a 24 volt motor that will accept an encoder once I can figure it all out. If not I hope to be able to mount a nema 23 or 34 stepper in place of its 24 Volt motor and use the dual loop method you have mentioned in some of the other post.

    Either way, the existing rack and pinion 24 volt motor setup has no means of translating position and will need to be replaced. I think it worked by stalling when it came down and then a short up movement, then by divided voltage feedback moving as needed.
    KFLOP/Kanalog set up-esabwiringdarksm-5-jpg

    I hope that image is big enough to view.
    Thanks, Chris.



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    KFLOP/Kanalog set up-thc-jpg

    Trying to see if this image was better. This is the THC from ESAB the MB01 board.



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Tom,
    The more I look at it the more I realize that the limits are in the correct spot, I believe. If the control box was not were it is then the X and Y axis would be correct at being that corner. Left and bottom in relation to the material load side of the table. I just need to wrap my head around that and fix my limits, home, and load position now before I go too far down the tracks.
    Right?

    Chris.



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Ok, Fixed the X, Y in the negative direction. Just so it doesn't drive me crazy, is there a way to swap the KmotionCNC buttons around for X and Y so they will match machine motion? Make the down arrows X+ and up arrows X-, jog left Y+ and jog right Y-? If I could find that C program......I would modify it!!



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Hi Chris,

    I don't follow much of that. But why not swap your x and y axes? X should be left and right. Y should be backward and frontwards. Also it is ok to home on the positive end of travel if you wish. In that case it really doesn't matter to have all your machine coordinates negative. Or if you don't like tat then instead of zeroing the axes at the home switch you can preset a large positive number such that zero would be over near the left side limit.

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Tom,
    From where the controls are when I hit jog left, the gantry goes right. And when I jog up the gantry goes closer to me. Can I swap the buttons to reverse the Jog+ and Jog-? The DRO count is correct, just the physical motion of the gantry is opposite of jog button arrow direction.
    Otherwise I am good on X and Y, they both go in the positive direction on the DRO and count now.
    Thanks, Chris.



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Hi Chris,

    We don't have any option to swap the Jog Buttons as that normally wouldn't make any sense. Pushing the right Jog button should move in the +X direction and make the X DRO value change in the + direction. Are you saying that is not the case?

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    No, the jog right button moves in the X+ direction. The controls are on the backside of the machine making the jog buttons seems opposite of the way they should move. From where I stand, when I jog X+ with the right jog button, visually the gantry is moving to my left.
    It is correct, just wish I could swap around the jog buttons to match what my eyes see actually moving. I will get use to it.
    KFLOP/Kanalog set up-jog-jpg



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Tom,
    I think what cjsamples is saying is if you hit the button on the left in KMotionCNC is "X-", the table physically moves to the right. All the industrial machines I have used the left button is "X+" so when you push the left button the table moves to the left. Below are a couple examples. I changed mine once using a resource editor, but I don't like doing that each time there is a new release. Additionally I think there should only be one jog button per direction and a seperate set of radio buttons to select "JOG", "1/2 JOG", "STEP". This would prevent hitting the wrong button.

    Mazak
    KFLOP/Kanalog set up-2014-10-23-18-43-59-jpg

    Fanuc Copy
    KFLOP/Kanalog set up-nanjing2ndautomationfanuc0i-md-gif

    Haas
    KFLOP/Kanalog set up-hass_operator_control_panel-gif



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    Default Re: KFLOP/Kanalog set up

    Hi engnerdan,

    You certainly make a compelling argument. But I think your examples are different from Chris's situation. Those systems are analogous to drawing on paper by moving the paper rather than the pen. I've always found it better to think in terms of moving the pen. So to draw (or cut, or position) to the right, a button on the right is pushed, regardless of the machine configuration. But obviously most of the rest of the world doesn't agree :} We will work to accommodate this. Thanks for pointing this out. No promises when.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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KFLOP/Kanalog set up

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