Kflop or linuxcnc/mesa for hurco conversion

[cwalker1960]

This thread is getting interesting. I have a full time (day ) job to pay the bills and as of now this is mostly hobby so my build will probably take a good while. I will keep a record and photos and post as often as possible.

For this machine, I felt like mach3 wouldn't be up to the challenge so I had originally planned using linuxcnc and mesa cards. Someone told me about dynamotions kflop (don't remember who know) and said i should take a look at it. kflop can be controlled with it's own front end "kmotioncnc" or alternately with mach3. I am sort of
undecided at the moment , but kflop does seem like an option
I have no desire for us to get into the whole mach3 vs linuxcnc debate here. Hopefully we can just point out which controller is capable of what functions, discuss which boards that it will take to do the tasks at hand with real life reasons as to why. So many times I see "well XXX is better" and someone asks why and the reply is something like " well because I use it and I said so"
I can honestly say I like the wizards in mach3. Sometimes it's just faster and easier to fill in the blanks and cut a part than it is to cad/cam it. I haven't used linuxcnc for a while now but I think I read a few people have written some conversational addons ,, I don't know , but if anyone does please respond and tell us your experience with them.
i guess now is as good a time as any to describe my machine.
At present it's a 5 ton boat anchor.
1990 hurco bmc 30, from all I can gather this is apparently leadwell iron fitted with hurco controls.
30" x, 20" y and 20"z, travel (from memory)
6000 rpm 7.5 kw 2 speed spindle motor
24 position cat 40 toolchanger (Geneva)
Yaskawa ac servos and yaskawa analog +-10vdc drives (i'll add the model #s later)
yaskawa spindle motor and yaskawa controller.
dual 5000 count encoders on each axis. One on each yaskawa axis motor that connects directly to the corresponding drive and one on each ballscrew that went to the hurco controller (the one I have to worry about) has 8 terminals: a+,a-,b+,b-,index+,index-,+5vdc, and common .someone has mentioned that these are actually 2500 count encoders called 5000 because they are quadrature, at the moment all I can give is what the manual says , I will check for sure before getting that far into it.
a limit switch (run of the mill) nc/no/com ) on the + and - of each axis. the (have to check again) normally closed contact is directly connected to the related servo drive for + limit or- limit and the NO to the controller for + _ for each axis
Have not dug deep enough to see if there is an encoder on the spindle , all i see right off is a prox switch presumably for toolchange index.
haven't identified everything coming out of the tool changer yet ,, electric motor rotates carousel (doesn't appear to have an encoder ,,since Geneva mechanism I'm guessing just an index to let it know it's made a full turn (but how do you track which pocket?)
any number of air solenoids,, lets see,, one 2 way for the tool changer slide, one 2 way for carousel up down
0ne for tool release, one for spindle clearing, have i left any out?
any number of limit switches on tool changer,,
i know,, I know ,, count all my I/O's before deciding on equipment.. come on people ,, this is supposed to be fun...
one I/O for spindle chiller (yep got ac)
one for flood coolant
oh yeah one for the other air solenoid (air chip removal)

"The Want List"
3 things that i really desire,, rigid tapping, thread milling, and the ability to electronically gear a 4th axis spindle to whichever axis needed, including the mill spindle.
This is the one area that I think linuxcnc shines above the rest.
I have had the idea in my head for a long time to use an old cnc lathe headstock for a 4th axis with encoder feedback so it could be used for indexing or turning.
If my spindle doesn't already have an encoder,, at some point i would like to add one for full control.
I haven't even gave thought to the console and pendant yet.
I/o's ,, whew,,,alright,, I'll break out pen and paper and list 'em all..

[Tkamsker]

hi for rigid tapping you need an encoder on the spindle you should check that it helps also for orientation 2nd i think you need to know how the pocket identification works often it is 2 hall switches ,..if you have that i would do an excel with required function prio and then colums with the 3 solutions you have mach3 kflop linuxcnc and then write down what you have out of the box , script to do, dev , and missing or difficult the solution shpuld be easy


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[samco]

I have been doing this for a long time. I read a lot of threads relating to the other controls (mach, kflop and such). Tom is a great guy and is very helpful. People talk highly of him and the hardware he sells.

It seems that a lot of things you do in the kflop does require programming. For the most part, in linuxcnc, - between Hal, ini and ladder - you should be able to do everything you need without programming. You do have the option if needed to write your own realtime componants too..

I only have experience with linuxcnc and mesa hardware (well - I do have some experience testing the mach3/4 trajectory planner but that is another story)
Mesa hardware is as good as it gets. Industrial and inexpensive. (and works perfectly) He is also very active in the linuxcnc community.

sam

[cwalker1960]

samco,
I'm still leaning heavily towards linuxcnc and mesa. I think it's a good fit for what I want to accomplish, that coupled with the very helpful people in the linuxcnc forum and the always high praises for mesa products makes it a choice hard to pass up.
BTW , nice work on the tool changer , how do you keep up with which tool is where when it places the previously used tool in the next up tool pocket?
would seem tool library has to be dynamic, self updating at each change

[samco]

BTW , nice work on the tool changer , how do keep up with which tool is where when it places the previously used tool in the next up tool pocket?

For me - the tool changing is easy. The tools are barcoded so I can just call the tool I need. It searches and reads each tool until it finds it.

Linuxcnc can keep track 2 different ways - by pocket or random.

http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gc...:tool-changers

RANDOM_TOOLCHANGER = 1 - This is for machines that cannot place the tool back into the pocket it came from. For example, machines that exchange the tool in the active pocket with the tool in the spindle.

sam

[m_c]

Keeping track of the tool position is a case of a persistent variable that gets updated every time the Geneva switch gets activated. You should know if you're increasing or decreasing depending on what direction you're running the motor.
One thing I have thought about for my big mill, is a random tool tracking feature, but I need to get the mill working first before thinking about extras!

KFlop will handle rigid tapping without any issue, provided the machine is up to it. I.e. the spindle can be controlled accurately enough. You can configure it to synchronise any axis with any other axis, and it's fully capable of 6 axis coordinated motion over any of it's 8 axis. Even although you can only use 6 axis coordinated motion, you can either have slaves that follow any of those axis i.e. a machine with twin motors on one axis, or an algorithm within the KFlop that generates the motion for the axis i.e. a hexapod type machine where the motors don't control any one axis directly.

Ideally you want to be using the motor encoders for the primary feedback loop, as any backlash between the motor and screw could cause motor tuning issues. KFlop would give you the option of using dual closed loop control, so if you could input both encoders outputs to the KFlop, you can use the motor encoders to get the best motor tuning, while also using the ballscrew encoders to maximise accuracy.

LinuxCNC or KFlop are both good options, and will do what you want. It just depends on what you prefer.
For me, I prefer KFlop's as it removes the reliance on dedicated computers. If something happens to the computer, I plug a new one in, load the relevant config file, and I'm of again. However, time is money for me, so my priorities will vary from others.

[engnerdan]

Not to try swaying you away from KFLOP, but if you do go LinuxCNC I would look into the current thread on here (cnczone) about porting Tormach's version called Path Pilot. It seems machine configuration should be the same as regular LinuxCNC. From what I have seen Path Pilot has a a user interface that is leaps and bounds better than Mach 3 and (sadly) KmotionCNC. Additionally Path Pilot has conversational programming, part and tool probing already written into the user interface. Those 2 features alone have had me contemplating switching to LinuxCNC couple times now. I think the user interface is one of the weakest points to the KFLOP for a dedicated CNC machine. I would really like to see Tom make some big changes to the user interface.

The biggest plus I see with the KFLOP is the reliability, it just always works. The software/hardware has never crashed on me. Having a separate piece of hardware that handles all the motion is nice, even if the computer is has a hiccup the controller keeps doing its thing. For me that is the biggest scare of going to LinuxCNC, what happens if the computer locks up or crashes?

-Dan

Path Pilot on Other Wiki
PathPilot on Non-Tormach Wikia

Path Pilot Porting Thread
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/tormac...-forum-12.html

Path Pilot on a Novakon Mill Thread
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/novako...8-tormach.html

[m_c]

I agree with you on the interface Dan, and have already posted a suggestion over on the yahoo group - https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...messages/12259

I do think some kind of wiki/knowledge base is needed, as there are plenty examples floating around here and on Yahoo covering lots of the capabilities of KFlop, and I often see similar questions being asked. (I have plenty hosting space to create a wiki, but not sure how much use it would actually see?)


I am however wondering if Tom has something in the works, given his silence, and the fact he never posts anything until the final product magically appears!

[Tkamsker]

hi m_c i agree to some extend which what you wrote i did following on an Bridgeport 412 using Linuxcnc and Fpga card
The setup at that machine is you have 2 contactless switches and the first pocket is both switches are on and then every other pocket is on only the 2nd switch. i made an small component which deals with all the noise and logic turning the carousel back and forth it calculates the shortest way etc. Th machine also has feedback switches like arm in danger etc
And using linuxcnc you could run more axis synchronously than that but how much are really needed ?
About the computer it is all about the hard disk i have an backup (and will in future have an iso ) so if the computer dies try 1 is get a new one swap the disk and you're back in business , if hard disk is dead ge a new one
restore from backup and you're back or setup a new installation and just restore your config So i don't see the difference so bad

[Eddard_Stark]

I agree with you on the interface Dan, and have already posted a suggestion over on the yahoo group - https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...messages/12259

I do think some kind of wiki/knowledge base is needed, as there are plenty examples floating around here and on Yahoo covering lots of the capabilities of KFlop, and I often see similar questions being asked. (I have plenty hosting space to create a wiki, but not sure how much use it would actually see?)


I am however wondering if Tom has something in the works, given his silence, and the fact he never posts anything until the final product magically appears!

I am just getting my feet wet with the KFLOP but I second the notion that a wiki/knowledge base needs to be created. As you say, many topics have been covered at one time or another but there are two issues as I see it:

1.) They are not organized at all. E.g. CNCzone is a fantastic resource for building a CNC machine, but if I were to recommend one site to a new person it would be MechMate. Their is orders of magnitude less knowledge on the MM site, but its mostly organized. A new person can start and go through each section of what is required to build a machine.

2.) In general the CNCZone isn't very search friendly (I exclusively use Google to search the site b/c the native search is very bad imo) and frankly I think the format of Yahoo groups leaves a lot to be desired. In both cases the information that is there is hard to get at.

Given the time Tom devotes to support, which is fantastic btw, I have often wondered why there hasn't been more effort to build a wiki or something similar, if for no other reason he doesn't have to address the same topics repeatedly.

[bhurts]

I agree it would be nice to see a dedicated and organized faq and how to for k-flop. The biggest number of questions are people trying to do things that have already been covered but not organized. Most of the drawbacks of k-flop seem to be people's fear of c-code. In truth 90 percent of programs needed for your average machine are already written and need only minor changes to implement. If someone does start a database I will pledge to contribute as much knowledge as I have available.(no expert)

Ben

[engnerdan]

I agree it would be nice to see a dedicated and organized faq and how to for k-flop. The biggest number of questions are people trying to do things that have already been covered but not organized. Most of the drawbacks of k-flop seem to be people's fear of c-code. In truth 90 percent of programs needed for your average machine are already written and need only minor changes to implement. If someone does start a database I will pledge to contribute as much knowledge as I have available.(no expert)

Ben

I suggested this to Tom on the Yahoo group, I think I put it as a wishlist item about a year ago.

"I have thought of a couple more possible wish list items/ideas.

1. A Wiki like page where members of this community can help contribute to documentation and definition of things (code, variables, programs). Maybe have a section to share example blocks of code.

2. A customers project section, a place where we can share our machines, pictures and information on them. That way new users can fond similar machines and ask questions. "

-Dan

[skullworks]

Well I made up this great excel spreadsheet listing all that MESA and dynomotion card options and prices. Its on my work PC. However I was just notified my position has been eliminated and I have been laid off (RIF).

The KFLOP route is a bit ( or quite a bit ) more expensive but may be simpler with respect to less boards and connections. However the part that bothers me is the C programing needed to make it all work. Bad logic by the programmer can cause the hardware to not function as expected.

Either way the guy doing the retrofit is going to have to tear into the machine and gain intimate carnal knowledge of all the inner workings, whims, and nuances. That takes time, coming up with reliable suitable methods to deal with all these also takes time and money.

Bottom line is your choices must be bullet proof industrial grade solutions if you are going to have anyone else running the machine. An employee injured on the job may cause a special investigator to go over the machine with a magnifying glass and fine tooth comb looking on a reason to hang this on you so insurance is off the hook. CYA!

[m_c]

For those who'd be willing to contribute to a wiki, drop me a PM.

I've created a wiki, but would like some others input on layout before making it fully public.

[TomKerekes]

Hi m_c,

I think a Wiki is a great idea. We've been working on trying to start one using MediaWiki but keep running into problems hosting it with our Yahoo Hosting Service. The issue seems to be "magic quotes" in php needs to be turned off, but Yahoo doesn't permit this (yahoo everything seems to be a mistake). We are looking at adding/changing to a different hosting service. If anyone has any insight into this it would be appreciated.

Regards

[m_c]

Just sent you an email Tom.
But having sent it, I think I'll start a new topic on here with details since you support the idea.

Hosting configuration can be a problem, especially when you want to do something the hosting company sees as non-standard. I'm lucky in that I use a very well supported host, who are very responsive to any issues I might be having, including tracking down problems that aren't actually their problem.

[cwalker1960]

Moving forward with my conversion I have decided to go the linuxcnc/mesa card route. This decision is based largely in part to the linuxcnc forum and the very knowledgeable, friendly and helpful people that reside there.
Through my readings and other comments I do believe Dynamotion to be a very capable and reliable controller but I feel my needs will be better addressed in the linux forums.
I will most certainly document my conversion and will probably just start a new thread here at "the zone" for anyone interested in my progress.
When I have gotten far enough along to warrant any information i will post the new link back here.
Meanwhile , keep the discussion open , wants, needs and ideas leads to improvements. The internet has supplied us with a medium for people all over the world to express their ideas and collaborate on ways to overcome obstacles.
A BIG thank you to everyone and hopefully my personal decision doesn't put me in bad standings with anyone that would choose a different path.I wish everyone complete success in any endeavor they embark on regardless of the road they choose.

[TomKerekes]

We do now have a wiki up for those interested. See:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/dynomo...i-running.html

Regards