kflop/kanalog tacho signal


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    Default kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi

    I'm trying to setup my kflog+kanalog to run my old fanuc drivers. Old fanuc sys is 6m-b.
    I have the diff encoder attached to kanalog and it is working.
    Vcmd on the driver connected to dac. When i enable the drive noq it just runs away like crasy. After some reading up on the drive it seems that the drive needs a tacho signal back.
    On 6m the fanuc motherboard has a f/v converter that uses the diff encoder signal to produce a tach the is wired back to the drive, tsa tsb.
    My question is, is there a way to create this tach signal using kflop+kanalog? I think it is 3v 1000rpm.

    /Lars
    Sweden

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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi Lars,

    I suppose something like that might be possible, but would be complicated and there may be some delay.

    Did you do any research on the drives? You didn't include any links. Is it possible to disable the Tachometer and operate the drive in torque mode?

    If you command different DAC values on the KMotion Console Screen can you control torque?

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi

    No, I cannot find any way to operate the drive in torque mode. I have decided to take out the old drives and use CNCdrive´s DG4S-16035 servo drivers instead. What I am wondering now is if I should close the loop with the Kflop/Kanalog controller or if it is best to run the Diff encoder back to the drive. The drive will take Step/dir. Where do I attach the Step/Dir cables on the Kflop/Kanalog controller? I may have to drive the spindle with +/- 10V so I will keep the kanalog attached. I will attach a schematic of the connections, please let me know if you see any wrong in it.

    The parts unclear before getting everything together is as follows:

    How big capacitor may I need between + and - after the rectifier, the manual, from CNCdrive, states 2000uF per amp over 80V.
    The Fanuc motor rates 108V and 12 A, 24000uF cannot be right?!?!??!?

    I have two AC transformers, one for X and Y axis, and one for Z and A axis. Is it possible to only have one 3-fase rectifier for X&Y and one for Z&A?
    The outputs on the first tranformer are UX, VX, WX, and UY, VY, WY. Can I attach these parallel? Put UX+UZ, VX+VY, and WX+WY together.
    I will attach a pic on the transformers.

    I hope you all have some input on this!

    regards
    Lars

    kflop/kanalog tacho signal-transformers-jpg, kflop/kanalog tacho signal-drive-jpg

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails kflop/kanalog tacho signal-circiutl-pdf  


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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    I would close the loop in k-flop but it is not something you have to do.

    Ben



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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi Lars,

    We prefer you close the position loops with KFLOP+Kanalog that way KFLOP has control and is aware of the feedback loops, but it is up to you. It might depend on whether you prefer tuning in the drive or in the KFLOP Software.

    I thin you should follow any recommendations of your drive manufacturer. But with 3 phase power you can possibly get away with a lot less capacitance. 3 phase power always has voltage available from one of the phases. With single phase power the voltage drops to zero 120 times per second and the capacitors must supply all the power during that time. Drawing 12A from a 24000uf capacitor for 1/120th of a second will cause the capacitor voltage to drop by:

    12A x 1/120sec / 24000uf = 4.2V

    It probably isn't a good idea to put the phases in parallel. If the voltages are not the same there might be large currents.

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi

    Thank you for your answers! Yes, closing the loop with kflop is what i was aming for when buying the control. Seems better than having 4 seperate drives closing the loop.

    I will send the guys at CNCdrive a mail and ask them about the capacitor.
    If not paralel wiring I will setup one contactor and one rectifier for each axis.

    How about fuses? Between the rectifier and the drive. Howto size them and what kind?

    Many thanks again!

    /Lars



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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi Lars,

    I can't provide much help except the obvious:

    I don't think the fuses will hurt anything as long as they are rated above your expected normal peak current.

    With something like a screwdriver short currents rise to Drive damaging levels in microseconds, but fuses blow in milliseconds so they may not protect the drives.

    If the drives have a large capacitor the turn on currents may be high enough to blow your fuse.

    Maybe someone else can offer further advice.

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Ok, just sent the people at cnxdrive an email with the capacitor question.

    Bought four of there 16035 servo drivers and bracking circuits today. I will be interesting to find out there performance.



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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi Lars,

    Those don't seem to be analog drives so they would not work with KFLOP+Kanalog closing the loop. So I'm guessing you decided to go the Step/Dir route?

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi

    Yes, with step/dir. Isn't possible to connect that to the kflop? Can i have kanalog still connected to drive my old spindle driver? I think I read that in some manual of yours.

    Can I close the loop with step/dir i kflop? Or do i have to connect the diff encoder to the drive and close the loop there?

    Thank you for the fast reply!!

    /Lars



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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi Lars,

    You didn't include a spec or a link but I Googled and found this:

    http://www.cncdrive.com/downloads/DG...ies_manual.pdf

    Those drives require Step/Dir signals that source current at a minimum of 3V. KFLOP's LVTTL outputs are only guaranteed to be 2.8V under all worst case conditions. Typically they would be higher. But this would be technically out of specification. Adding a pull up resistor to +5V would increase the output voltage to bring it into specification.

    Yes you can still have Kanalog Connected. See:
    Dynomotion Motion Control Boards for CNC Manufacturing and Robotics Applications

    I don't think it makes sense to close the loop both in the drive and in KFLOP when using a single encoder. One or the other should be sufficient. With something like linear scales on your axis it would make sense to have dual loops to improve accuracy. You must connect the encoder to the drive for that type of drive to work. You can also connect the encoder back to Kanalog/KFLOP so it can monitor the actual position but that makes the cabling, shielding, and grounding somewhat messy.

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    I'm progressing with setting up the drives and kflop/kanalog+konnect board.

    Question, is the only way to gey 4 axis step/dir out of this configuration to remove jp5 from kanalog and connect 4 x step/dir on jp5?

    Does open collector work with this drive. It has 5v opto, but step and dir use the same gnd. Any way to connect to that?

    The pinout of the Main connector is listed below:
    1. Step signal input
    2. Direction signal input
    3. Ground for Step and Direction signals
    4. 5V power input
    5. Reset
    6. Error
    7. input DC power + 12V DC
    8. DC power – ground for the 12V

    Link to drive:
    CNCdrive - motion controls

    Or is it easier to connect it as lvttl and use pullup resistor, 330 ohm, the raise V to perhaps 3,5V.

    If i dissconnect jp5 on kanalog i will loose diffinputs right? Do not think i need those for driving the spindle drive with either 0-10 V or 12 bit binary code.

    /Lars



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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi Lars,

    I believe those drives specify that sourcing 3V at 10ma is required. As you describe using KFLOP JP5 is probably the simplest/best approach if you don't need all the Kanalog differential inputs. Open Collector mode only sinks current so they wouldn't work without some current sourcing arrangement (pullup). I think it would be better to use the LVTTL mode. LVTTL mode should provide faster rise times by actively driving the pin high rather than only having a pullup resistor pull the voltage high. The KFLOP LVTTL outputs guarantee at least 2.8V sourcing 16ma so they are likely to source 3V at 10ma and are likely to work directly. But you should check the voltage and if they are not at least 3V then add a pull up resistor connected to +5V as you describe. Avoid pulling the signals above 3.8V.

    HTH
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Ok! Thank you for the fast reply! Good service!!



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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi Tom

    I have tried to get one axis moving today, X axis. I have connected as follows:

    Step for x-axis to pin 1 JP5
    Dir for x-axis to pin 2 JP5

    Common Step/Dir GND to a GND point on Kflop/Kanalog.

    What confuses me is that the drive have a common step/dir GND. Any GND on Kflop/Kanalog good?

    Is this correct?

    Will eventually have all 4 axis connected to JP5.

    This is the code i have Compiled/Uploaded and Run in Kmotion. Does it look ok?
    I have not changed anything exept set it to step/dir with no Input and picked output channel 12.
    LVttl on Pin 1 & 2 on JP5, right?

    Code:
    	ch0->InputMode=NO_INPUT_MODE;
    	ch0->OutputMode=STEP_DIR_MODE;
    	ch0->Vel=40000;
    	ch0->Accel=400000;
    	ch0->Jerk=4e+006;
    	ch0->P=0;
    	ch0->I=0.01;
    	ch0->D=0;
    	ch0->FFAccel=0;
    	ch0->FFVel=0;
    	ch0->MaxI=200;
    	ch0->MaxErr=1e+006;
    	ch0->MaxOutput=200;
    	ch0->DeadBandGain=1;
    	ch0->DeadBandRange=0;
    	ch0->InputChan0=0;
    	ch0->InputChan1=0;
    	ch0->OutputChan0=12;
    	ch0->OutputChan1=0;
    	ch0->MasterAxis=-1;
    	ch0->LimitSwitchOptions=0x110;
    	ch0->LimitSwitchNegBit=0;
    	ch0->LimitSwitchPosBit=0;
    	ch0->SoftLimitPos=1e+009;
    	ch0->SoftLimitNeg=-1e+009;
    	ch0->InputGain0=1;
    	ch0->InputGain1=1;
    	ch0->InputOffset0=0;
    	ch0->InputOffset1=0;
    	ch0->OutputGain=1;
    	ch0->OutputOffset=0;
    	ch0->SlaveGain=1;
    	ch0->BacklashMode=BACKLASH_OFF;
    	ch0->BacklashAmount=0;
    	ch0->BacklashRate=0;
    	ch0->invDistPerCycle=1;
    	ch0->Lead=0;
    	ch0->MaxFollowingError=1000000000;
    	ch0->StepperAmplitude=20;
    
    	ch0->iir[0].B0=1;
    	ch0->iir[0].B1=0;
    	ch0->iir[0].B2=0;
    	ch0->iir[0].A1=0;
    	ch0->iir[0].A2=0;
    
    	ch0->iir[1].B0=1;
    	ch0->iir[1].B1=0;
    	ch0->iir[1].B2=0;
    	ch0->iir[1].A1=0;
    	ch0->iir[1].A2=0;
    
    	ch0->iir[2].B0=0.000768788;
    	ch0->iir[2].B1=0.00153758;
    	ch0->iir[2].B2=0.000768788;
    	ch0->iir[2].A1=1.92076;
    	ch0->iir[2].A2=-0.923833;
    
            EnableAxisDest(0,0);
    
            DefineCoordSystem(0,-1,-1,-1);
    
            Return 0;
    I got some small movement from the axis when i clicked move in the step/response tab.
    What should PID values be in there, should that even matter since i did the PID tuning in the drive?

    Will have to check that PID values are stored correctly in the drive, it acted like PID values was reset.

    What would be the next step?

    I have tuned the PID in the servoconf that comes with the drive. It has gone fairly ok.
    I want to test the PID tuning by jogging or running some G-code.
    Do i set Acceleration, velocity and Jerk in Kmotion or in Mach3?

    By the way, I may want to buy another Konnect board to get some more I/O, is it possible to purcase a cable that can connect 2 boards from you? Do you just stack them ontop of eachother to get short cables?

    /Lars



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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi Lars,

    What confuses me is that the drive have a common step/dir GND. Any GND on Kflop/Kanalog good? Is this correct?
    Yes any DC GND (not earth GND) should be ok.

    This is the code i have Compiled/Uploaded and Run in Kmotion. Does it look ok?
    I have not changed anything exept set it to step/dir with no Input and picked output channel 12.
    LVttl on Pin 1 & 2 on JP5, right?
    Yes that looks correct to me, but you have not shown a complete program.

    I got some small movement from the axis when i clicked move in the step/response tab.
    Pushing the "Move" button downloads all the parameters from KMotion's Step/Config/Filters screens potentially overwriting anything that was set by running a C Program. Are you aware of this? Make sure all the screen settings match the settings in the C program. Or "Upload" the parameters set by the C Program to the screens before pushing the "Move" button.

    What "size" move did you make?

    What should PID values be in there, should that even matter since i did the PID tuning in the drive?
    The PID values in KFLOP do not matter. They are not being used. Your drive is closing any feedback loop.

    I want to test the PID tuning by jogging or running some G-code.
    Do i set Acceleration, velocity and Jerk in Kmotion or in Mach3?
    Please get everything working and tuned in KMotion.exe before attempting to run Mach3, or Gcode, or Jogging

    Do i set Acceleration, velocity and Jerk in Kmotion or in Mach3?
    Both. First determine the values in KMotion.exe Step Response Screen in units of Steps and seconds.

    I may want to buy another Konnect board to get some more I/O, is it possible to purcase a cable that can connect 2 boards from you? Do you just stack them ontop of eachother to get short cables?
    In cases like that we prefer you make your own cables so they properly match how you have the boards mounted. It is pretty easy to crimp connectors on 16 pin ribbon cable. Stacking Konnects would keep the cables short but would probably make it difficult to do the wiring. Try to keep the cable between KFLOP and the first Konnect as short as possible, but its ok for the cable to the second Konnect to be 1 foot long.

    HTh
    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    OK, I connected the step/dir GND to this GND point on the Kanalog board. The hole marked with an arrow in the attached pic. Is this wrong?
    kflop/kanalog tacho signal-kanaloggnd-jpg

    ohh, I forgot to paste the complete code with the starting part.

    What can i write in the console to move the axis? Can i type in something like: Move(0) = 100

    When I pressed the Move button i Step/Response screen I think it was 3 sec, 1000 size.

    In the config program for the drive i take 10000 steps for 10 mm of travel, if I do remember correct.

    Regarding the cable for the Konnect board nr 2. It works great when knowing I can have a longer cable between board nr 1 and nr 2.

    Thank you for all the feedback!

    /Lars



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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    One more thing, what parts of the Step Response screen will affect my system?
    Is it only the Motion profile part that i can make changes to, V,A and J?
    The Step part, what to use? Move button or Step button? What is the difference?

    /Lars



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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Hi Lars,

    That GND Lug should work

    What can i write in the console to move the axis? Can i type in something like: Move(0) = 100
    It would be Move0=100 for an absolute move. There is a "Help" button on the Console Screen that will bring you to a List of commands. See:
    Script Commands
    Script Commands

    When I pressed the Move button i Step/Response screen I think it was 3 sec, 1000 size.
    In the config program for the drive i take 10000 steps for 10 mm of travel, if I do remember correct.
    Then that axis should have moved 1mm

    One more thing, what parts of the Step Response screen will affect my system?
    Is it only the Motion profile part that i can make changes to, V,A and J?
    Yes

    The Step part, what to use? Move button or Step button? What is the difference?
    Use the Move Button. The Step Button will make an instantaneous "Step" to the destination which doesn't make much sense for Step/Dir Pulse systems.

    BTW you can get answers to most of these questions with 2 mouse clicks. Click on "Help" and then the Button or cell you have a question about.

    Regards

    Regards
    TK http://dynomotion.com


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    Default Re: kflop/kanalog tacho signal

    Got the xaxis moving today, wooho!
    Here is a link.

    Still got some tweaking to do though...



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