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Thread: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

  1. #41
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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Quote Originally Posted by drhanger View Post
    Marty-

    I need to replace that pot (43P203) so I'd like to order that from the same place as the rectifier, but I'm having trouble finding both items in one place. Got any suggestions? If I have to I can split it up, but I know I'll pay a lot more in shipping that way.
    Search ebay for this part number KBPC8010. 80A 1000V I believe this is one I used on mine. Way overkill but I'd rather have the extra margin.
    They do the same thing.

    Marty



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    You might look at Digikey or Allied Electronics for the parts.



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    You might look at Digikey or Allied Electronics for the parts.
    Hey Jim--

    I already ordered both from Ebay--in fact within 10 minutes of placing the order for the rectifiers it was shipping! Also ordered some of the pots from the Jameco store on Ebay, so should have both items soon.



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Update: I haven't called SD tech support yet, still on my to-do list. Meanwhile, while waiting for my new parts I decided to go through with my earlier plan to swap out the driver with the working one in the second machine. I stopped in the riggers storage and had them move it to a power source so I could verify the operation first. Everything initialized just fine and I could operate the spindle at various speeds, also checked the fault LED's and all was fine, so confirmed the second driver was good. I powered down and pulled the entire driver chassis assembly and went home. I was going to just change out the whole assembly, but the second one was really messy (found out later the fan wasn't even working, lucky the driver worked at all) so I swapped circuit boards, putting the second board into the first chassis assembly and back into the first machine. Guess what, the ground fault returned with the working board. So I returned the second board to the original chassis and put that in, and all was fine.

    Since I had already removed the motor cables to eliminate that possibility, and the ground fault did not reappear with the second chassis assembly installed (although the spindle did not initialize, assuming it must have the 3 phase shutout that Jim referred to earlier), it seems that some component on the first chassis assembly itself may be the problem.

    BTW, what's the best method of cleaning all the old oil and grunge off the assembly without causing any damage? Contact cleaner?



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    Quote Originally Posted by drhanger View Post
    Update: I haven't called SD tech support yet, still on my to-do list. Meanwhile, while waiting for my new parts I decided to go through with my earlier plan to swap out the driver with the working one in the second machine. I stopped in the riggers storage and had them move it to a power source so I could verify the operation first. Everything initialized just fine and I could operate the spindle at various speeds, also checked the fault LED's and all was fine, so confirmed the second driver was good. I powered down and pulled the entire driver chassis assembly and went home. I was going to just change out the whole assembly, but the second one was really messy (found out later the fan wasn't even working, lucky the driver worked at all) so I swapped circuit boards, putting the second board into the first chassis assembly and back into the first machine. Guess what, the ground fault returned with the working board. So I returned the second board to the original chassis and put that in, and all was fine.

    Since I had already removed the motor cables to eliminate that possibility, and the ground fault did not reappear with the second chassis assembly installed (although the spindle did not initialize, assuming it must have the 3 phase shutout that Jim referred to earlier), it seems that some component on the first chassis assembly itself may be the problem.

    BTW, what's the best method of cleaning all the old oil and grunge off the assembly without causing any damage? Contact cleaner?
    Did you do that YouTube search?



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty_Escarcega View Post
    Did you do that YouTube search?
    Yeah, I found it but haven't watched it yet. Thanks for reminding me.



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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Sounds like you're making progress.

    I'm guessing that either the blocking diode or a transistor is shorted on the first board output section. That can be repaired later.

    As far as the 3 phase shutout, I'll review the drawing again to see if it actually exists.

    Contact cleaner is good, you can also use non-flammable auto brake parts cleaner (tetrachloroethane). Do not use the flamable stuff, it's laquer thinner and will damage the insulation.



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    My apologies, he had a different problem, he was blowing a line input fuse.
    I do have the leakage problem you do on my spare amplifier, it still has its 3 phase bridge and will be replacing it.
    The fact that you swapped a good SD3060 amplfier onto the SD3060 chassis that supplies power to it and recreated the problem does seem to indicate that the problem is not with the amplifier board but rather the chassis if I read your last diagnostic procedure correctly.

    Last edited by Marty_Escarcega; 01-11-2017 at 03:53 PM.


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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty_Escarcega View Post
    My apologies, he had a different problem, he was blowing a line input fuse.
    I do have the leakage problem you do on my spare amplifier, it still has its 3 phase bridge and will be replacing it.
    The fact that you swapped a good SD3060 amplfier onto the SD3060 chassis that supplies power to it and recreated the problem does seem to indicate that the problem is not with the amplifier board but rather the chassis if I read your last diagnostic procedure correctly.
    Hey Marty-

    Yeah you read that right, the second amplifier on the first chassis still blows the fuse leading to the ground fault error.

    I doubt if this has anything to do with the problem (but what do I know), but below are a couple of photos comparing the two chassis--the one called first is the one blowing the fuse, and it has two wires at the input terminal that are not on the second good one. Any idea what those might be for?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter-first-jpg   DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter-second-jpg  


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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Well, I have no idea about those two wires, but I decided to just try taping them off and not connecting them, put everything back to original, started it up and no ground fault. Machine initializes fine (again no spindle initialize though). WTF?



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    A little more investigation--I distinctly remember the fan working on this chassis, but now it's not. It appears that someone has tried to re-route the fan wires and when I left them out it fixed the ground fault problem. I'll have to look at it a little more closely to be sure though.



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Here's a photo of the second chassis before pulling it out--distinctly shows the power for the chassis PS and fan coming from a different source. Have to consult the DM schematic to tell where it's supposed to come from and why it's not present on this machine--and why the ground fault when connected in the alternate way.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter-img_20170110_144316-jpg  


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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Been going through the schematics, the pdf manual I have seems to be a hodge-podge of different machine revisions and hand drawn diagrams, but I saw at least a couple of pages that shows the jumper wire configuration on the faulting chassis, so apparently that's legitimate. Power from 2 of the incoming 3 phase 115V wires is being shunted over to the onboard PS for the amp and the fan. So the mystery still remains of what exactly is causing the ground fault--something in the PS or the fan?

    Connecting some dots: the first chassis/amp always had the ground fault--according to the amp manual whenever any of the 4 fault LED's was showing, a latching circuit shut down the amp output to the motor, so with things the way they were the spindle motor was never going to initialize. Putting the second chassis/amp in did not ground fault, but neither did it do anything else because I wasn't paying attention to the fact that the jumper wires were not on that chassis, and I was not connecting any power for the onboard PS/fan, so again the spindle was never going to initialize under that condition.

    Earlier today I left a voicemail with Servo Dynamics tech support, but didn't get a return call yet. When (if) I do I'll try to get as much info about the ground fault possible conditions as I can.



  14. #54
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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    I'm not able to find any reference to a phase loss circuit. But having said that, the manual that I have does not show the full DC power supply schematic. I'm still pretty sure it should run on single phase, but not 100% sure without seeing the schematic.



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    I'm not able to find any reference to a phase loss circuit. But having said that, the manual that I have does not show the full DC power supply schematic. I'm still pretty sure it should run on single phase, but not 100% sure without seeing the schematic.
    Take a look at my last post starting with connecting the dots and see if my conclusion so far makes sense. If so then I haven't been able to get to the point where the spindle would even initialize, no matter what, so it's a moot point at this moment. I think you have all the schematics that I have, but I'll check again.

    Last night after my last post I put the second chassis assembly as original from the second machine back in the first machine, only this time I added the two jumpers that the first chassis has and once again got the ground fault. Last time I put the second original in I hadn't connected a power supply to TB201 (3060 manual, page 15) but didn't get a ground fault. There's something about those 2 jumper wires that's wrong--even though as I said earlier I found diagrams that show those jumpers in place, for example, see page 129 of the DM maintenance manual which shows the jumpers between TB201 and 202, like on the first chassis. But then look on page 55, it shows the power for TB201 coming from a different source, like the picture in my post 52 of the second chassis before I removed it. So it appears that somebody scanned in more than one revision in the pdf version of the manual. Anyway, something about that connection is messing everything up; maybe you can make some sense of it. Is it because the jumpers are shunting two 3-phase inputs over to TB201 which requires single phase? But why would the manual show that as a valid connection? Maybe I should try leaving the jumpers out in any case and run a temporary single phase 120V power supply to that terminal--I was thinking that last night but just got tired of it, and now I won't be back at it until this afternoon, so it will have to wait.



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    That is a bit strange. In reading the notes (1) on page 15, it says that ''TB101'' needs to be isolated from everything else. I suspect that they mean TB202 per the drawing, at least that would make sense.

    I think you have the right idea in connecting the fan and PS to a separate 120V source, I would put in a small 240/120 control transformer to isolate it and run it from the 240V machine power. The 115V 3 phase input terminals should be isolated by the big transformer, so no problem there.



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Running out of steam on this one. I stopped today to look at the second working machine that I took the working 3060 chassis assembly out of. That's the one that had the different 120VAC power input rather than the jumper wires. I traced the cable to a couple of terminals on a terminal block and noted the location, then pulled the cable out from those terminals and took it with me. When I got home I noted that those same two terminals were unused (except for the supply terminals going to them) and checked the voltage with the power on. Measured 138VAC, but the 3060 manual specified 115-125, so thought I'd better try something else. I rigged a cable just plugged in to household outlet at 122VAC and connected it to the TB201 input terminals. Tried both chassis in their original states using that power supply, but both of them went straight to ground fault. Getting very frustrating.

    Got the single phase rectifier today but it will have to wait now until I can get this amp going again, if ever. Never got a call back from Servo Dynamics, so that's becoming a dead end as well. Sigh....



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Don't give up, you're just about there. It may require the isolation transformer that I mentioned above. Try connecting a 60 watt lamp across those unused terminals that were showing 138 volts. Then remeasure the voltage. My guess it that it will be more in the range of 120 with a load on it. What is the voltage to the drive input terminals?



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Thanks for the encouragement--I do feel like we're on the cusp, but it gets discouraging when the ideas start to run out. I appreciate you guys sticking with me, I'd have given up by now.

    Haven't done the isolation transformer as I'll need to order one, and haven't tried the 60 watt lamp yet (too tired last night), but I did check the drive input terminals. I'm assuming you're talking about the 3 phase 115VAC inputs, (page 15 of the 3060 manual, TB202, terminals 1-3). Here's the readings:

    1-2 = 128.2V
    2-3 = 74.3V
    1-3 = 54.3V

    I was expecting to see the same voltage across all three, but maybe that's because I'm connected to single phase mains? This has given me another idea, it's just a WAG because I really don't know how this should work--what if the amp circuits are interpreting the lower voltages as a ground fault? The second amp, in the second machine, connected to 3 phase at the riggers' warehouse, worked perfectly fine, but putting it in the first machine with single phase produces the same ground fault as the first amp. The first machine (I'm still calling the one in my garage the first machine, just to be clear) was the one that the seller had disconnected because, according to him, the only problem was the oiler failure leading to the X axis overload. He told me they moved the controller (these machines have a plug-in controller you can move to different machines) to the other machine to finish a program that was on it, and disconnected the first machine so it wasn't running when I got it. I was assuming that he hadn't been truthful with me about it still running, but maybe the difference was they had 3 phase.

    Now that I have the single phase rectifier, maybe I should go ahead and install it and see what happens. I have to do that anyway at some point, so no harm done. I know I'm likely barking up the wrong tree, but if nothing else it might lead to some other places we haven't looked yet.



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    Default Re: DM4400-what size 3 phase motor for rotary converter

    Those voltages are about what I would expect, assuming you are inputting power to terminals 1 and 2.

    Disconnect the wire from terminal 3 and cap it off. That should make it a true single phase input. I suspect the transformer may be affecting things with that 3rd leg connected. Then measure the DC voltage across C201. It should be around 170-180 volts DC

    This still doesn't explain the ground fault issue, which now I'm beginning to suspect is a function of the design of the drive rather than an actual fault. You just need to accommodate the design. The manual is conflicted on that issue and and page 15 seems to be the correct information. I have essentially the same drives (SD-1525) in both my Eagle and my friends Shizuoka that is sitting in my shop getting a retrofit. The main difference is the the DC power supply and +/- 15 V are separate from the drives, where yours is built in. I've not had any problems making them work.

    If you look at the schematic on page 29, the high voltage section is internally transformer isolated from the rest of the control circuit. The only ground reference seems to be through the fuse and resistor at the bottom right. So isolating that from the fan input terminals seems to be the correct way to do it.



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