Newbie- ZenBot vs BlackToe v4.0 vs ???

[MunchyMonster]

I've been lurking here for close to a year, trying to decide on building or buying an entry level machine. I've got a decent woodshop, but I don't have any metalworking experience. I plan on cutting wood mostly, MAYBE some plastic, and lot's of MDF, but we all know how plans change. If the machine can do it I probably will end up experimenting with other materials.

If I decide to buy, I don't mind building a kit, but I'd like to have the x/y/z motion electronics mostly taken care of (aside from bolting the motors on and wire management). I've played with CNC a bit using my dad's CNC Shark, but I'd like to be able to use 2'x4' MDF/plywood "handy panels" straight off the shelf from the big box hardware stores as my blanks for prototyping new ideas.

Along those lines I've asked Shawn at ZenBot about getting a 2'x4' usuable area ZenBot and he says he could do it (as a custom size). I've also been looking at Patrick Hood-Daniel's BlackToe v4.0. Both machines have the desired cutting area, I'm pretty sure both of them will allow me to mount a 2+hp router, and they are both in the same ballpark as far as price is concerned.

I've heard good things about the ZenBot and I've been following the evolution of the BlackToe from back when Patrick was building the original in the bathroom of his apartment. MDF and/or wood construction does not bother me. If I can't do what I want with this machine, I just won't do it. I don't need to cut metal and I don't NEED to cut fast (I'd like to get as much as I can, but I don't NEED to be super fast).

Does anyone have experience to share about either machine?

-MunchyMonster

[brtech]

Although there are some issues, you might also want to consider a Fineline Automation FLA-200. It's 2 x 4, and is all 8020 construction. Complete kit, bolt together except for things like limit switches.

The Zenbot is plastic parts, right? I'd think scaling that up and being rigid would be an issue. The Blacktoe is something close to, but better than MDF mostly. It's screw or chain drive, where the FLA-200 is R&P on the 4' and screw on the 2'.

Dealing with Nate at Fineline is sometimes hit and miss (delivery commitments), but the quality of the product is excellent. I really like the simplicity of the basic design, which uses the cncrouterparts carriages directly mounted to 8020 extensions, with no side panels. There are no aluminum (or MDF) plates - just 8020 and the steel rails for the carriages (and the rack) other than the bearing supports for the screws.

I've seen a Blacktoe, never seen a Zenbot. The Blacktoe is pretty good for an "MDF" machine, but I think 8020 is better. Compare prices.

[Drools]

I thought the 2x4 version used ACME on the long axis, and the 4x4 used R&P. Either way the Fineline product is a very very good product. I use quite a bit of their products in my router and I'm very happy with them.

[brtech]

Fineline has 3 kit models:
FLA-100: 2 x 3, screws on both X & Y
FLA-200: 2 x 4, screw on X (2'), R&P on Y (4')
FLA-300: 4 x 4, R&P on both X and Y

I have the 300

[MunchyMonster]

I just took a quick look at the Fine Line Automation site, and I couldn't find either the FLA200 or 300 versions. I see that you can get the plans for the 100 version and you can even buy a "complete" kit. I shot an email off to the "contact us" link. I guess we'll give pre-sale service a test drive.

MunchyMonster

[hemsworthlad]

Hi,

Can I just point something out about kit's that maybe people dont think about.
They mostly use off the shelf parts for the important bits and still need to be assembled and setup by the user, which any one who has built a machine will tell is half the battle to getting an accurate machine.
Would think even the best designed kits need carefull assembly and i'm guessing because i've not built a kit machine a small amount modification some where at some point to suit individual needs.

Monster what i'm saying while i understand sometimes it can be easier buying ready made machines, esp if in a hurry or a business where time is money, I can see from experience with building small completely assembled machines which I build/sell for people that in the case of kits it not being as simple as just bolt it together and off you go.?
If it's a ready made setup machine then yes ok but just by the nature of cnc a kit will still need some input by the user/assembler.

If your in no hurry and not on a small budget, which i presume your not because your looking at expensive kit's. Why not build your own using off the shelf parts like 80/20 for the chassis, linear rails for the slides, cheap ballscrews from china, there are loads of retailers in US that can provide you with tailored motor kits that are basicly plug n play. Gecko G540 being the classic easy driver just add motors and psu and away you go.
The rest of the machine is just Ali plates that can easily be drilled and cut with decent bench/bandsaw and drill press or if you have a cnc machine shop near by or a kindly zone member you could have them cut them for you. . . Other than the plates for gantry sides etc the rest rails/screws etc are mostly bolt on parts.

Honestly it's not difficult and you would have a tailor made machine to suit your exact needs which you will know and understand fully because you built it for probably half to 2/3 the cost of a kit.
There's a mountain of information and experience at your finger tips here on the zone with loads of experienced people gladly willing to give sound advice if needed, me included. Just shoot an email if your ever stuck and i'll try and help or if I dont know i'm sure i'll know someone who does or they'll know someone etc.

GO FOR IT, IT's NOT DIFFICULT . . . . .and great fun with a massive sense of achievement at the end.? . . . . OR IS THAT THE BEGINNING. ? ? ? ?

Regards
Dean.

[brtech]

Nate at Fineline sometimes gets behind. I'm not sure why he hasn't put the -200 and -300 on the website. There are a couple of -200s around, with threads here in the zone, and my -300 thread has lots of info.

Someone didn't want to wait for Nate to get back to him, so he built what I think is a -200 from the plans. It cost him the same as buying the kit to have the 8020 cut to length and purchase the parts. You do have to figure out a lot from just looking at the plans, but lots of folks have done it. A completely assembled machine requires much less, of course.

Designing your own is certainly a path many here have followed, but it does require a whole additional set of skills. Since the kit cost the same as the parts in the kit, it's gonna cost the same as parts you design, assuming your design is as efficient as the kit's design. The Fineline design, once you buy into using cncrouterparts components, is very simple, very efficient. If you don't buy into cncrouterparts components, then you have a much greater set of possibilities, many of which are going to cost more and/or need a fair amount of design knowledge to get right. The first of any design always has issues, and you spend money and time making them right. The advantage of a kit is that someone else spends that money and time.

Nate may not be able to sustain a business if his margins are too small. He did raise prices a while back. I got what I think is outstanding value. It's all in what your priorities are.

[PropNut]

I scratch built a copy of the blacktoe 4x8 machine and have been very happy with it. As hemsworthlad mentioned; I used off the shelf parts including the G540 and a motor/PSU/Steeper kit from Keling. Most of everything else came from the local hardware stores.

[MunchyMonster]

I've been arguing over the buy vs build issues for a long time now. The physical build of the machine could in and of itself be an amusing task. But I've been dithering over it for so long I figured going the kit route I might actually make some forward progress. Either way I've got a lego display system to finish for my son, a tv stand for my wife, and a tv stand for my mother in law in the pipe before I can tackle a big project just for me. With the feedback given here I'm starting to sway back to the build it myself end of the spectrum.

[PropNut]

I have had a lot of fun building and "tweaking" my setup. The CNC is a huge time saver but, honestly, I would build another just or the fun of it....as a matter of fact I am contemplating just that.

[hemsworthlad]

Massive massive fun giving a warm fuzzy feeling when your new baby breath's for the first time. . Lol

Honestly It's not hard or overly complicated, obviously this will depend on your technical/mechanical skills some what but if you have some basic experience then it's very very do able.