Newbie- Total Newbie... plotting the course

[Mountaincraft]

Greetings!!

Been dreaming of building a CNC plasma cutter/router for several years.. Was interested in the torchmate rigs, but they were always out of my price range, and are even more so now..

Deciding to go it the DIY route, especially now that I've found this forum...

Goal... To build a table or tables that will ultimately be used for fabrication of some product ideas I have, for feeding my need for artistic outlet, to supplement or even replace my current form of income, which is a dying industry, and getting harder for me to do as I am getting older... (electrical/general construction/handyman)... to provide customer design fabrication, design and build, etc... Want to be able to provide CNC design and fabrication in wood, steel, aluminum, and plastic...

General plan... To start with a CNC router/engraver build, buying as many parts along the way as possible that can be used for a large scale plasma/routing table...

Idea being that I'd scrounge up enough parts to get my feet wet on a very small scale, and learn what I'm doing, before I start making 'sizeable' investments of time and money...

I don't know if this would be more trouble than it's worth, but I have several old ink jet printers laying around that have parts in them that would seem to be useful.... I thought that maybe I could start by getting the software I'd need, and then take stepper motors from these things, and build a little dremel tool table...

Is this a crazy idea? If not, then perhaps someone could give some pointers of how to get started... Would I be able to use drivers and Power Supplies for these little steppers that could later be used for a bigger machine? Seems like these things have belts and pulleys, as well as hardened steel guides and slides that would be useful as well.. not to mention all kinds of gears and what not...

If this is not a feasible way to start out, then, I guess I'd be needing to buy all the steppers and drivers, and power supplies outright... Money is real tight for me nowadays, like everyone else in my industry, especially in rural Nor Cal...

Been doing a little research over the years and months, and I have a background in computer graphics, animation, and 3D modeling... I'm hoping that some of the software I already have can be used for artwork/design...

Anyways, that's the readers digest version of where I'm at right now... and I'd appreciate whatever guidance, advice, and resources that those with the inkling to share can provide....

Thanks,
Mark in NorCal.....

[analogman]

My way of doing things is to build what I want. I only do prototypes only when absolutely required. Often I use kits or plans (or really good build logs), to help me along when I am doing something very new to myself. I like the course to be well charted when I do something new.

For my CNC, I selected the DataCut plans, and all is well with me. I have been in production about a year and a half and its working fantastic.

If you can get most of your parts for your prototype cheap or free, then by all means build the prototype as a learning experience (if you want to spend the time). However, if you want to purchase parts that you want to use on a larger machine OR if your prototype starts costing too much money, I would just build what you want. Find some plans or (good) build logs of what you ultimately want and go for it.

You could build/purchase a controller, computer and software that will handle both machines - that will not be wasted money or time.

Not sure of what equipment and skills you have, but lots can be done with bolt together 8020. You will need to have a steel support bed for plasma though. You may need access to welder, cut-off, mill and lathe for a decent size plasma machine. Depends on how it is constructed.

[Mountaincraft]

Thanks for your reply...

My 'main' reason for doing it this way, as opposed to just building what I want, is 'funds'... If I keep waiting to build the ultimate machine, I will likely 'never' do it..

So I'm 'hoping' that I can buy 'some' of the stuff for a 'cheapo' build, that can also be used on a larger machine later..

Obviously, steppers, lead screws, bearings, etc. for the larger machine, have to be bought for that machines design..

What I'm 'hoping' is that I can decide on a 'larger' set of steppers, and then get drivers and power supply for them now, and use them on the smaller table with the smaller steppers..

I suppose this might be easier if I ask a specific question in that regards..

Can drivers and power supply be 'oversized'??? IOW, if I buy something that is sure to be big enough for my needs later, can I use them now for something much smaller in current demand? Or do drivers/power supply have to be sized exactly for the steppers being used?

Also, is building a table for use as a router table and a plasma table a bad idea? Or should I think along the lines of building two separate tables, one purposed for plasma, and one purposed for wood/plastic routing? Obviously, building two separate tables adds to the cost...

OTOH, building for the routing table now, means the initial cost is lower than building a larger, dual purpose machine...

[Mountaincraft]

BTW, I'm a pretty handy guy when it comes to building things... And I have some welding equipment (oxy acetyline, small MIG, buzz box).. drill presses, cut off saws, a pretty good pile of steel tubing, pipe, angle oron.. lots of general hardware and fasteners...

I don't have a milling machine or lathe. but hopefully I won't need a lot of that... I do have a couple floor standing drill presses with 2D positional vises, so I could do some poor mans milling I guess...

[analogman]

OK, since funds is the constraint, here way I see it.

Lets say it'll cost you $500 for a controller, computer and software that can run either machine. Then you spend another $500 on steppers, rails, etc. for your prototype. Great, you build the prototype.

TIme comes you want to build your big machine. No problem with controller, computer and software because you designed for it. However, the $500 you spent on your prototype is somewhat throw-away, because what you really wanted was the big machine. And once you get the big machine built you probably wont go back to the smaller machine. However you might be able to sell it.

Basically it will cost you more money to build the prototype. No matter what you do it wont be cheaper to build two machines, even if you share the controller.

If you are still balking at my suggestion, is there another reason why you want the prototype other than funds?

OK, all that being said. If you still want to build the prototype no biggie, just go in with eyes wide open. It will cost more bucks in the end.

I suggest the following, spec out your ultimate machine (which includes being within your budget) and see what it will cost. Once you have that number then you are better prepared to make decisions.

To answer your other questions.

You controller can be oversized and run small steppers - no problem. However you will have to be all "steppers" or all "servos". Since funds is your problem, I presume you will go with steppers for both machines. The same CNC software is used for both the small machine and the large machine. For example I can use my controller and computer on both my CNC Mill and my CNC Router.

Yes you can have a machine that can do plasma and router. You just need to design for it. In this case you will need to be able so swap out the table tops and the heads. Not something you want to 5 times a day, but it wont be so bad. Saves on floor space and will be cheaper than two machines. You will also need to make sure your shop is set up properly. E.g. wood dust and plasma sparks dont mix too well. Or rather they mix too well!


So how big of a machine do you need/want? What examples of jobs will you do? This will help to determine what the cost of your big machine will be.

[Mountaincraft]

This is why I was talking about stealing steppers and rails or whatever from dot matrix or ink jet printers.. using wood or whatever to frame up the cheapo table, threaded rod and barrel nuts for lead screws, etc... whilst I accumulate the real steppers, bearings, rails, lead screws, etc. for the final table.. IOW, do all my learning with salvaged parts spending as close to 'nothing' as possible, by using what I have laying around already.. I have several computers that can be parted together for the project, and several printers, tons of wood, scrap steel, wire, etc... and fasteners of every shape and size.. 'And you have no idea how many 'cables' of various types and sizes I have, having owned a live sound company, and a couple project recording studios over the years....

That being said, I'm not married to 'any' route towards the end at this point...

Ultimately, I would like to be able to handle sheet stock that is up to 5' x 10'... Which makes things potentially pricey... And yeah, I have considered the potential problems with wood dust and sparks... there's a reason, they require explosion proof wiring methods in wood shops... So I guess some sort of effective vacuum system and a way to change out capture bins would be in order...

Initial projects will include working on doors and jambs, mouldings, signs, and artwork cut from stainless, cold rolled steel, aluminum, plastic, etc. to be embedded in other mediums...and short run manufacturing of brackets, corbels, etc... I see other potential markets too, for local racers, auto enthusiasts, farmers, etc...

We also have several sizable craft fairs every year, and I have a 'special' idea or two up my sleeve...

So from all that, I guess the next order of business is to determine the max size steppers I'd need, and then determine the drivers/power supply for them, and the software/hardware required in as far as the computer...

Is there any 'free' software out there that can be used for the short term, while I get started on all this...

[Mountaincraft]

In my mind, the series of events goes something like this...

Determine the 'end game' parts I'll need in as far as software, computer, step motors, drivers, power supply..

Buy the drivers and power supply.. scavenge together a computer and purchase software unless I can use something 'free' for the time being...

Determine the final lead screw system, rails and bearings that will be used in the 'Z Axis' of the final machine.. then buy them...

Use them as the 'Y' Axis for the temp machine.. use scavenged rails, steppers, etc. from printers for the X and Z axis of the temp machine... Use threaded rod and barrel nuts for lead screws in the X and Z axis of the temp machine.. use the 'good' lead screw and rails intended for the final machines Z Axis in the temp machines 'Y axis.. use particle board, plywood, whatever for the temp machines frame... I now have a 12" x 18" router table with a dremel tool installed...

use the table, continue learning and deciding direction, working out problems, etc...

Get it all 'working' and start working out bugs while I get together the parts fr the final machines 'Y Axis'.. order the 60+ inch rails and lead screw, stepper. etc. for the final machines Y axis gantry, and then use them in the temp machines 'X Axis'... rebuild the table, again in temp fashion, but start building the permanent carriage for the bigger router and the 'Z axis' I now have a 60" x 12" machine..

Begin getting the parts together for building the gantry in it's final incarnation... install it on a temp table bed, with a 24 inch X Axis controlling it... I now have a 24" x 60" table....

build the main X Axis table, with final rails, lead screws, etc... Along the way, I've already built the final gantry, dremel, router mounts, etc.. now just have to build the table..

Add plasma functionality to it....

This may be a totally bass ackwards approach to things, but in my mind, it makes sense, as it allows me to get my feet wet quickly, without having to worry about being perfect form the get go.. I learn a lot, working out the kinks as I go, avoiding costly mistakes, allows me to use the machine as I add pieces/functionality/capability/quality to the rig... and gives me a pretty good education while I take my time to plan out the final machine.. with loads of opportunity to incorporate improvements and ideas as I go.. not to mention changes as I see potential problems...

I don't see this method as wasting much 'money'.. Time yes, but money no.. But time I have more of nowadays than money...

Would love to hear others approach to thier first builds... What they'd do differently if they could do it over, flaws in my plan etc...

Any ideas as to what I should be looking at in the way of steppers. drivers, power supply, etc..

I'm kinda thinking of driving the X Axis on the final machine with two stationary screws, and dual steppers mounted on the gantry driving the lead screw nuts.. I'm thinking that with suck a long run, this would be a stable way to reduce wobble/run out....

Thoughts anyone?

[analogman]

Take a look at MechMate. That'll give you a good idea of a big machine in the DIY category. They have a big forum there as well.

[Mountaincraft]

MechMate?

[analogman]

No Mechmate.

(remember google is your friend)

[Mountaincraft]

Originally Posted by analogman No Mechmate. (remember google is your friend)

NICE!

A quick perusal of their site forums doesn't answer one question though...

Any idea if that thing can be used for plasma as well? Reason says yes, but I see nothing to confirm that..

Anyways, thanks... I'll have to check that out for sure...

[Mountaincraft]

Originally Posted by Mountaincraft NICE! A quick perusal of their site forums doesn't answer one question though... Any idea if that thing can be used for plasma as well? Reason says yes, but I see nothing to confirm that.. Anyways, thanks... I'll have to check that out for sure...

Nevermind.... I found info on that....

Now if the cost is not too ridiculous, this may be the hot ticket for me....