My router went today on my old DIY table need advise

[Andreiir]

A air spindle is more suitable for high speed use , an water spindle is ok when u want to do some low rpm cuts , it doesn't get so warm , i use it at about 3000 rpm when i drill , and some slow cuts in acrilic , and is w ok for me , and i use it for aluminium , and other non ferous metals .
Air spindle i don't have , but when i see this one water cooled how hot gets on low rpm , the air spindle for shure will burn after few drills .
Air spindle is ok , when u need high rpm , and u use it in an open space , water spindles , u can use them in closed space , because there is no source of heating else than spindle , and the milling bits .

I use it in a closed housing , and i don't have problems with heat , and noise .

Its just like other thinks , some people use the android , some use ios , some use symbian ... they all think what they use is the best .
Anyway there are some better specs in favor of water cooled spindle , runs more quieter , even if u cut some plastics , u dont hear it at all , runs more cold , and i think this will lost longer than air spindle .

But for water spindle u need an chiller and u need some pipes with colant to coll it down , when with air spindle u don't need all that stuff .

Anyway this is my experience , i don't want to influence ur way of doing thinks.

[ger21]

But for water spindle u need an chiller and u need some pipes with colant to coll it down

A lot of people just use a pump in a bucket of water. Those spindles aren't supposed to be run that slow, which is why it's getting so hot. If you run them at the recommended RPM (8000-24000 for air cooled), you shouldn't have overheating issues.

[adam_m]

So what type of spindle is used for cutting steel/cast, etc?

I don't have any projects in mind but it would be nice to get an "All-in-One" type spindle if I'm spending money on one...

Adam,

[ger21]

Mills use spindles with separate motors, that often have top speeds in the 6000-8000 rpm range.

There really is no "all in one" type spindle, unless you spend a lot of money for a big spindle (10+HP) like the ones used in big VMC's.

[KH0UJ]

So what type of spindle is used for cutting steel/cast, etc?

I don't have any projects in mind but it would be nice to get an "All-in-One" type spindle if I'm spending money on one...

Adam,

On my opinion any spindle motor can cut steel or any metal, (even a dremel can cut steel) the only factor is time, a 300 Watt spindle can cut steel any day but it needs to go back and fourth on a single cut due to the fact that it`s torque is limited, even a drop of water can bore a hole in a rock, but it`ll probably take 10-15 years to make just a single bore, to cut the story short the bigger the power the faster it cuts

[wizard]

This is a bit of a loaded question as it depends upon many factors.

So what type of spindle is used for cutting steel/cast, etc?

Generally you want lower speeds and higher torque. However this requires a frame that is far stiffer than most routers. Further how well the machining of steel will work depends upon the techniques employed sometime you will eant to run the spindle under 400 RPMs. The variable speed router spindles just don't perform well under about 6000 RPM.

Now that being said with much patients and small doameter cutyers steel can be machined on a stiff router. The real question would be are the resilts going to be acceptable.

Generally i dont want to promote peoples expectations here when it comes to machining steels. In fact unless you have considerable machine building experience and maching experience i would say the best approach is to think it isnt possible. Once you understand the machine you have built experimenting with the machining of steels will show you what is possible.

I don't have any projects in mind but it would be nice to get an "All-in-One" type spindle if I'm spending money on one...

Adam,

An All-in-One doesnt exist at this level in my opinion. Of course my view of what machining steel means may differ from others. The problem is that minimal router speed and machine stiffness. In the end you might get engraver like performance instead of anything that comes close to milling machine like performance.

[Gary-Wiant]

Ok so it's time for me to show how new I actually am to running a CNC. I really haven't used the router much all so I really haven't gotten into feed & speed settings, I've just ran the router at 16,000-18,000 RPM At 40 inches / minute. I realize it's slow but the router isn't as rigid as I would like.

Here are my questions.

Pros & Cons of water vs air cooled.

It seems water cooled are mainly 3 bearing & air cooled are 4 bearing. Does the extra bearing make that much of a difference for mainly cutting / routing wood, PVC & ACP composite sheeting.

From what I understand Huan Yang VDF are the best of the VDF but are there any others that are comparative?

Thanks to everyone for the help

[A_Camera]

Ok so it's time for me to show how new I actually am to running a CNC. I really haven't used the router much all so I really haven't gotten into feed & speed settings, I've just ran the router at 16,000-18,000 RPM At 40 inches / minute. I realize it's slow but the router isn't as rigid as I would like.

Here are my questions.

Pros & Cons of water vs air cooled.

It seems water cooled are mainly 3 bearing & air cooled are 4 bearing. Does the extra bearing make that much of a difference for mainly cutting / routing wood, PVC & ACP composite sheeting.

From what I understand Huan Yang VDF are the best of the VDF but are there any others that are comparative?

Thanks to everyone for the help

An extra bearing is definitely good to have, regardless of what you are milling. However I am not sure that water cooled have 3 and air cooled 4 bearings. It is not that simple. Some have 3 some have 4, depending on the make, no the type of cooling. I also don't think one is better than the other, but it depends on the quality of the spindle and the personal preference. I was told that I will regret buying an air cooled spindle. That was more than a year ago and the day of regret hasn't come yet, in fact, if I would need a new spindle it would still be an air cooled one. I am milling/drilling/engraving plastic (delrin and acrylic mostly), PCB, aluminum but not wood.

Regarding the VFD, the Huanyang is NOT the best, quite the opposite, but it is the cheapest and the most sold one. A lot of problems... poor documentation, no support, poor quality and so on. In fact I don't understand why people buy those at all. There are many brands, real brands, and basically any one is better than the Hy. I am using a Bosch and would never buy a Huanyang.

[battwell]

i have both water cooled and air cooled chinese spindles on my machines. air cooled are fine if used correctly- and a lot less faff than the water cooled models. by correctly i mean run them at the speeds they are designed to be ran at . 10000 to 18000 rpm for chinese spindles ( some people push them to 24000 rpm but the bearings they use arent really up to that speed if you want long life from them)
re vfds. the older hy are not the best as ac mentions below. their newer model GT series vfds are in my opinion -pretty good. (i have them running a compressor and big cnc in my home workshop for around 2 years- and are standard modbus compatible- unlike the older models)
if your buying a vfd based on cheapest price- have a look at ecogoo on ali express. i have a few of their vfds on test here at the moment and im very impressed with the build quality and high end features they offer. (and cheaper than HY) also fully standard modbus compatible.

[A_Camera]

I think the biggest problem with cheap VFD is that people expect to get the same as they would expect from a real brand in terms of quality, functionality, support and documentation. My opinion is that buying a cheap spindle is one thing, easy to replace and the quality is good enough because they are very simple things, but the VFD is a totally different matter, so I am ready to pay extra for excellent documentation, support, functionality and build quality, knowing that I get what I should expect and if something is wrong I know who to call, which language to speak and get the service in case it is needed. Also since the VFD is connected to the mains, I like to be on the safe side regarding electrical safety and interference. With spindles it is simpler, the worst which can happen is that the earth is not connected, which is easily checked and fixed. Once that is done the spindle is safe to use.

[A_Camera]

These are the ones that I have.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-Air-C...gAAOSwY3BZJ6MR

If I were buying today, I'd probably buy this one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-MILL-EN...YAAOSwk5FUtyta


One issue with these is that it's a bit tricky to connect a ground wire, since the top is all plastic...

I don't know if there is any difference between the two... anyway, I bought mine from the same seller as the second link, mine is a 1.5kW 65mm and has a threaded hole in the tube which is visible in one of the images. I used that hole to connect the earth. Pretty simple actually. The only issue was that the four screws holding the plastic top were really crap, much smaller than necessary so I changed those four screws also. I wouldn't have seen this if the earth was connected from the start because in that case I wouldn't have removed the plastic top. Good idea to remove the screws just to check in case yours is earthed...

[adam_m]

Excellent discussion and information - I hope this doesn't stray too far from Gary's problem...

I kind of figured there wasn't an all-in-one router for steel/wood, etc. for home use but thought it was worth asking...

My current hitatchi router has about ran its course and has served its purpose but the bearings are beginning to fail and I think it's time for an upgrade.

Do the fan based models blow at the piece of work mounted on the table or out the top?

Speaking of VFD's, I'm not a huge believer in Chinese electronics, actually they mostly suck. So I'm with A_Camera in that I would prefer a more supported item, recommendations on a good/reasonably proceed VFD?

Adam,

[ger21]

Do the fan based models blow at the piece of work mounted on the table or out the top?

Down. But they don't blow nearly as hard as a router. The round spindles don't actually have a fan, but more of an impeller. So they move less air, which is why they are much quieter.

I think that if you were to read every post from everyone with a chinese spindle, you'll find that the Huanyang VFD's made in the last 5 or so years are pretty decent, and reliable. The key is to make sure you get a "genuine" huanyang, and not a knockoff. And stay away from all the various other chinese vfd, with very poor or minimal documentation.

When people have issues, it's ususally do to miswiring, or improper parameters.

I have a Huanyang, and I'd buy another.

How much better is a $330 Hitachi than a $135 Huanyang, that works perfectly fine?

[A_Camera]

Excellent discussion and information - I hope this doesn't stray too far from Gary's problem...

I kind of figured there wasn't an all-in-one router for steel/wood, etc. for home use but thought it was worth asking...

My current hitatchi router has about ran its course and has served its purpose but the bearings are beginning to fail and I think it's time for an upgrade.

Do the fan based models blow at the piece of work mounted on the table or out the top?

Speaking of VFD's, I'm not a huge believer in Chinese electronics, actually they mostly suck. So I'm with A_Camera in that I would prefer a more supported item, recommendations on a good/reasonably proceed VFD?

Adam,

If it's just the bearings and the brushes then replacing those is much cheaper and should be pretty simple to do, but if you want a 3-phase brushless spindle then that is a bit more complicated because it means new spindle holder as well as all the other things around.

Anyway, I think if you have been a happy user of an air cooled router then an air cooled spindle is definitely not going to bother you. regarding the blow out, it is downwards. The fan is at the top and air is blown through the body. There are tubes in the frame to lead the air. Some will argue that this is not good because it blows dust, but personally I don't see this as a serious problem at all. Have a look at this video.



I am milling PCB and if dues blowing would have been an issue then the traces would stay clean and as you can see, I need to brush or use a dust shoe to remove the dust. In other words, the fan is really not an issue regarding "dust blown all over the place"... which was one often mentioned argument against air cooled spindles.

I can't recommend any VFD other than the one I have. I have no experience with others, but I am convinced that it is worth to spend a little extra on the VFD. I am happy with the one I have (Bosch Rexroth EFC5610), the manual is very good and well written and it works perfectly. It is a sensorless vector control type, so running the spindle at low speed is possible, torque is maintained quite well, but of course, current is increased and the motor gets hotter, but that have not presented a problem yet.

[1Jumper10]

...
I have a Huanyang, and I'd buy another.

How much better is a $330 Hitachi than a $135 Huanyang, that works perfectly fine?

I've had both and I'd buy the Hitachi again even though its more money just for 2 features: The ability to accept a pulse stream for speed control and the auto tune function for sensorless vector mode. MODBUS can do the same as the pulse stream, digital speed control but it requires a two wire connection and an adapter. There are other nice features as well, and the documentation is good.

[battwell]

the new hy gt series and ecogoo have all the features ive found on any of my top brand stuff. (control techniques , yaskawa, mitsubishi etc)
they are sensorless vector, blah blah blah.
im running specials here - 200v in 3 phase 380v out up to 7.5kw. they handle a 9hp spindle even at 5 seconds deceleration without adding a braking resistor !

[wizard]

On my opinion any spindle motor can cut steel or any metal, (even a dremel can cut steel) the only factor is time, a 300 Watt spindle can cut steel any day but it needs to go back and fourth on a single cut due to the fact that it`s torque is limited, even a drop of water can bore a hole in a rock, but it`ll probably take 10-15 years to make just a single bore, to cut the story short the bigger the power the faster it cuts

While this is all true there are other issues such as excessive cutter wear and the quality of the final results. This is why i suggest to people to avoid thinking about even cutting steel until you understand the machine and what it capable of, further such a user needs to understand the various machining techniques that would make it possible to accomplish any steel machining at all.

The fact remains that many routers that do a passible bit of machining in wood should never see steel. It comes back to understanding an individual machine.

[Gary-Wiant]

Not straying to far from my post I'm learning a lot, I've decided I'm going to replace the router with a spindle, I'm not sure if I'm getting water cooled or air cooled or even which VDF. I was set on Huan Yang then reading on here made me unsure. So then I found this one water cooled spindle that has 4 bearings but I'm not sure about 5he VDF on this one as well. If anyone has any recommendations on an easy to use reasonable VDF please let me know.

This is the link to the "leader of the pack" so far. Please give any advice you have.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-2-2KW-ER20-Water-Cooled-Engrave-Metal-Spindle-Motor-VFD-Clamp-Pump-Collet/112687952165?hash=item1a3cb9b125:g:RJQAAOSwa~FZi~Q j

I'm interested in American made VDF as well but I'm not sure I can afford them.

[HoY]

That looks like a good all in one kit. That seller also sells the huanyang vfd's, of which I have purchased 3 from them. Very friendly and helpful support from them if you need it.

[ger21]

Here's my recommendation. Offer them $300.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FOUR-BEARIN...IAAOSw1vlUtyPk

Imo, the Huanyang is the best of the cheap chinese, and by far the most used. Better documentation then the others as well.

A "quality" VFD will cost over $300 for the VFD alone. And I don't think there are any US made VFD's.