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    Default wood cutting Spindle choices?

    My design is firming up but I need to pick a spindle so I can set the length of the motor mount plate and overall Z height etc. I am not interested in the Chinese spindles (water or air cooled). I probably need ER16 or ER20. It seems like ER11 is a bit too small although it could be fine. My calculations for cutting power indicated I need less than 600Watts and as the spindle is moving I don't want it to be any heavier than necessary. (figure max 10mm end mills and cutting primarily hardwood)

    I think everything available on the market is carried by Sortec https://sorotec.de/shop/Fraesmotoren-neu/

    The square body spindles make more sense from a mounting, stiffness standpoint than the Kress, Schuner etc end mounting spindles. I would like to be able to adjust the alignment a bit and that is easier with a large flat mounting surface.
    I have the ability and equipment to design and build my own spindle body and belt drive it from a 3 phase motor but I think in the interest of simplicity an off the shelf spindle is probably the best course at the moment. I don't see the need for an automatic tool changer although some sort of tool holder that allows repeatable tool lengths (SK15 etc) would be nice although the cost would be higher than can be justified.

    As far as I can tell air cooling is fine for this application as I won't be using super dusty materials (no MDF if I can help it) and will fully enclose the router so noise isn't a huge issue. Also these spindles tend to be less horrifyingly loud than a traditional woodworking router or cheap spindle.

    The basic specs on this machine are 1200mm x 700mm cutting area with around 100mm Z travel. It is a moving gantry design and will be cutting 3D profiles in wood for casting patterns etc, perhaps a little aluminum work.

    something like https://www.sorotec.de/shop/ER16---2...--0-60-KW.html
    or
    https://www.sorotec.de/shop/HF-Spind...-inkl--FU.html
    or in ER11
    https://www.sorotec.de/shop/Komplett...-8kW-4816.html

    any thoughts?

    These seem a bit expensive but when you consider the total cost of this sort of project spending 500 to even 1000 euro on the spindle isn't out of order. I can't see spending more on stepper drivers than on the spindle and those Gecko 203v's add up.

    Thanks

    Luke

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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    I would get at least a 1.5 or 2kw. The price increase is minimal, and you'll have a much heavier duty spindle.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    Thanks Ger21, I will consider some more powerful spindles. I don't want to go up much in weight (an ER25 spindle tends to be over 8kg) but I will look at the more powerful Er20 options.

    L



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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaspianCmonster View Post
    Thanks Ger21, I will consider some more powerful spindles. I don't want to go up much in weight (an ER25 spindle tends to be over 8kg) but I will look at the more powerful Er20 options.

    L
    Weight shouldn't be a huge issue unless you machine is less rigid than ideal. You mentioned making patterns as a primary goal, if so from time to time having power available can make bulk removal happen faster.

    However often pattern making only slightly loads the spindle, generally you still want a larger spindle with importantly a larger collet, to handle a wider array of cutters. ER11 for instance is way too small and thus limits tool diameter significantly.

    Of course only you know what your intentions are with respect to pattern making but in general you want a collet larger than ER11.



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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    Of the options you presented, I liked the Teknomotor HF-Motor ER16 / 230V / 21.600 U/min / 0.60 KW best. It seems like a nice compromise between power and weight, and the price is surprisingly low for a European-made spindle. As others have pointed out, one is never sorry for getting something more powerful, but if you're just using small tools it should be adequate. Just expect it to take a lot longer to rough out a 3D part than something which could spin a 12mm tool. And, of course, you'll need a VFD with that - I like the Hitachi brand, but I'm not sure what's available in Norway.

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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    Thanks for the replies.

    Do you guys think ER20 is big enough or is it worth the extra weight to go up to ER25. say one of these https://www.sorotec.de/shop/HF-Spind...24000rpm-.html
    ER25 allows 16mm shanks which is far more tool than you can get in ER20.

    My perspective is a little off as years ago I did my masters degree research on balancing a 12hp spindle that would cut 3 inches of OSB in a single pass. It also weighed over 50 lbs and the bearings cost as much as a nice car (hence the need for on insitu balancing). I know I don't want something that large but am not quite sure how small I want to go. I am not doing production and the parts are not generally all that large. If they aren't sheet goods the parts are going to be smaller than a shoe box so material removal isn't the primary concern. It would appear that the slow portion of the process is the finishing with a ball end mill which is more about speed than power so a medium size spindle that is lighter weight could be an advantage overall.

    When I run the numbers on cutting power I get the impression it would be hard to fully drive a 16mm cutter with 2kW, so perhaps ER20 is sufficient as I would probably end up running less than max diameter tools anyway. The equations are for metal (using a low Birnell for wood) so I don't know how accurate they are but intuitively they seem about right. Another potential plus for the ER25 is that a 16mm or 15mm endmill is much stiffer than a 13mm so a longer bit would have less deflection which should improve finish etc. I don't know if this is a major issue with carbide and cutting wood as the cutting forces are generally not all that high compared to milling steel but it is a difference to be sure.

    L



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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    Since you were originally looking at 600w spindles, I can't see a reason that you'd need ER25 collets.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    Spindle power is more or less tied to cutter diameter, with ER16 I really could only use 600watts with a 10mm cutter, with ER25 I think that number goes up to more like 3kW because I can use a 16mm cutter. The machine can be made to work with any of the spindles, if ER25 is simply a better solution then I can use that on the machine. For the size etc I think ER20 is probably fine but I am lacking practical experience with small machines, hence the question

    thanks

    Luke



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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    I'm not sure how you are calculating power requirements.

    A 10mm tool can require more than 5KW, at high speeds and deep cuts. A deep, fast cut with a 16mm tool could require closer to 8KW.

    If you are looking at a 2-3KW spindle, you won't have enough power to use a 16mm tool efficiently.

    One benefit to an ER25 spindle,though, is larger bearings, which makes the spindle potentially more durable,

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    Make sure the collet size supports the size shank/bit you plan on using. Common here are 1/4" and 1/2" available at most hardware/woodworking stores.



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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaspianCmonster View Post
    Spindle power is more or less tied to cutter diameter, with ER16 I really could only use 600watts with a 10mm cutter, with ER25 I think that number goes up to more like 3kW because I can use a 16mm cutter. The machine can be made to work with any of the spindles, if ER25 is simply a better solution then I can use that on the machine. For the size etc I think ER20 is probably fine but I am lacking practical experience with small machines, hence the question

    thanks

    Luke

    Only you know what your will be machining but collet size Isn't just about cutter diameter. Say for example you need to use an extension to get into a deep location on one of your patterns. A larger diameter Collet can be a big advantage here as you can hold a large diameter ER extension. On the flips side a large ER collet leaves you with a large nut on your spindle which can get in the way for more normal operation. Personally I wouldn't go below ER20 as that covers common shanks sizes in the USA, so call that a minimal size. I just want to make sure you realize that there may be other issues beyond cutter diameter when it comes to choosing a spindle collet size.



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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    Thanks Wizard, that is a good tip about the ER extensions. I think I will go ER25, even if I don't use a super powerful spindle so I can get the tool diameter up.

    L



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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaspianCmonster View Post
    Thanks Wizard, that is a good tip about the ER extensions. I think I will go ER25, even if I don't use a super powerful spindle so I can get the tool diameter up.

    L
    Before you commit you might want to consider the electrical power you have available just to make sure you can properly supply a larger spindle which has, I'm assuming, a larger motor. I have no idea how you do things in Norway as far as electrical wiring goes. If you have the larger collet you won't be able to use the larger cutters unless you have the required power available.



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    Default Re: wood cutting Spindle choices?

    One thing we have plenty of over here is power We get 3x 230v by 32 amp three phase at the wall and three phase is much more common here than in the States (We don't do that that funny US two leg 240v power thing). Normal kettles in the kitchen run 2400 watts and a normal outlet is either 10 or 16amps at 230v so 2,3kw or 3,6kW. Given the rest of my shop is running on 380v three phase with a step up transformer I will probably use a 380v three phase VFD to run a 380v spindle unless a 230v spindle and vfd are much cheaper. If I run a sub 2kW spindle I will probably use a single phase to three phase VFD at 230V to make it more portable as if I move to Europe proper I won't have 230V three phase any longer.

    L



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wood cutting Spindle choices?

wood cutting Spindle choices?