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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Actually, I'm not the guy to ask about feeds and speeds for steel. I believe the program is telling you the correct power. I'm guessing that for that small bit though, the RPM is too low, even for steel.

    A mill like a bridgeport might have 2HP and can use much larger bits than you are planning.

    Try using some 6mm or 10mm bits with faster speeds and feeds and see what the program tells you.

    I'm guessing your spindle will not be a problem to get you to adequate torques with small bits like you are planning. It's getting the machine stiff. That program assumes that your machine is a heavy duty, rock solid machine, so what you are able to achieve in practice is still undetermined.

    I've been thinking a bit more about this. I'm wondering if you should just go ahead and replace all the existing round rails to square ones, redesign your gantry side supports to be more triangular and move the bearing placement a bit, bolt the aluminum sheet on and add ribs like we discussed before, and make the Z out of a square steel tube, epoxy granite in every hollow. That would be way less work than a new machine. I recommend looking closely at the builds from linux_fan and ThomConcept before you decide on upgrades or a new machine. Both have ribbed structures and epoxy granite filling, but one gantry is aluminum, and one is steel.

    That would make your modifications to be more like the two examples I posted. I've seen many examples of people who tried and did not do so well, but those two examples are the rare cases of people who made machines that can cut aluminum, and even steel it would appear, quite well. Neither one uses T slot, but also, I don't think many people use two pieces of T slot with plates on front and back and ribs inside and all voids filled with epoxy granite.

    Of course, what you decide is up to you. If you like this machine the way it is, you could still spend some time designing a new one.

    I agree with Ger21 that I have also read several posts on here from people who have found the round rails to be the weakest part. If you do decide to upgrade the machine you have, you could plan it out to do every change, but then see how it does after each one.



  2. #22
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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    I meant "All the balls that are in contact with the rail."

    With a round rail, the ball bearings on the opposite side of where the force is applied aren't really doing anything.
    With a profile rail, all of the balls in contact with the rails are sharing the load. And there are a lot more balls in contact.
    Only if the load on a profile rail is in a downwards.....or upwards....... direction which puts the load on the balls against the lower or upper part of the rail groove profile.

    ANY side loading automatically applies a load to only one side of the bearing block.

    In the round rail type there are 3 rows of balls contacting the round rail in a triangular configuration.

    If the loading is downwards you only have one row of balls carrying the load .....the lower 2 rows do not carry the load but act as guides.

    If the loading is upwards....away from the rail..... you get the 2 bottom rows of balls carrying the load.....any side loading only gets a single row of balls at an angle to carry the load as the top one can not, but when any side load is present it will exert a pressure to pull the top row down in contact with the rail.

    Depending on where the loading is greatest you can have unsupported round rails with ball bushings that also have 3 rows of balls that can be positioned to have 2 rows carrying the main anticipated load.

    Fully supported round rails are easier to mount and cheaper to replace when they become too slack and are sold and used in greater quantities than the profiled rails.

    BTW.....just as a matter of interest.........a puzzle has perplexed me for a long time......how do balls become frictionless load carriers when they are in a track and pushing against one another.....the adjacent faces of 2 balls are moving in the opposite directions.....that is one face is rising and the other face is going down and so will cause friction when they make contact as they roll

    Surely the ideal there is to have alternate balls of a slightly smaller diam.....,04mm smaller etc..... to allow the smaller of them to rotate in the opposite direction un-loaded and act as spacers.

    Normal radial ball races need cages to offset that problem ( and for assembly too) otherwise the balls will crowd together and slide instead of rotating and wear out rapidly.
    Ian.

    Last edited by handlewanker; 09-20-2017 at 12:15 AM.


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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    In the round rail type there are 3 rows of balls contacting the round rail in a triangular configuration.
    I have a question about that:
    My current machine uses 16mm round bearings and rails that have 4 rows of balls. I'm not saying thats much better. Actually it's probably worse since there is no a row directly on the top of the rail to carry the weight of the gantry etc.
    Also the round bearings and guides I was planning to use before I changed my mind to square ones, have 8 rows of balls. They are 30mm in diameter. Two bearings plus housings are still 20% cheaper that a single bearing block for square rail where I buy my parts. So I was planning to use twice as many bearings. Do you think that would have made a difference?

    Now, I changed my mind to square blocks and rails not only because they have better properties, but also they are all steel, there is no aluminum involved. While the housings of the round bearings are aluminum, and the base of the supported round rial is also aluminum. Also I get the feeling the square blocks/rails would have longer lifetime. Am I right about that?



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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Hi, it's hard to say unless the round rails have been found universally to be crap.

    A lot depends on what you intend to do with the machine.....if it's for a commercial earning the bread scenario, you would be a fool to build one as opposed to buying in one that follows lines more applicable to hard use etc.

    When it comes to DIY building either for a budget or just plain hobby........DON'T OVER ENGINEER.......the cost outlay in the end will not be seen as an improvement with hobby use and you won't get more bang for the buck by piling on the specifications.

    In the end you can only build according to your pocket depth....or aspirations to specifications as a wow factor......that is the same as buying a car with twin carbies and only going to the local shops once a week etc.

    If you have the money to indulge your whim.....go the exotic path and buy the best.....I did, and am a happy chappie and get a warm glow etc.

    You might want to sell it one day and move on to a better design......cheap parts will not impress a buyer.

    There's nothing like wishing you had spent more on the build once it's done.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan-Ivanov View Post
    I have a question about that:
    My current machine uses 16mm round bearings and rails that have 4 rows of balls. I'm not saying thats much better. Actually it's probably worse since there is no a row directly on the top of the rail to carry the weight of the gantry etc.
    Also the round bearings and guides I was planning to use before I changed my mind to square ones, have 8 rows of balls. They are 30mm in diameter. Two bearings plus housings are still 20% cheaper that a single bearing block for square rail where I buy my parts. So I was planning to use twice as many bearings. Do you think that would have made a difference?
    A relatively large diameter round rail can be better than an extremely small profile rail. To an extent and frankly you need rather massive components to properly mount the really large round rail bearings. Note that some round bearing holders actually are adjustable allowing for a squeeze on the bearing to take out slop. Even so profile rails are considered a far better choice.

    I suggest looking at it this way, in the automation industry special machines are built using whatever combination of components make sense. You rarely see round rails used where precision movements and any significant amount of stiffness is required.
    Now, I changed my mind to square blocks and rails not only because they have better properties, but also they are all steel, there is no aluminum involved. While the housings of the round bearings are aluminum, and the base of the supported round rial is also aluminum. Also I get the feeling the square blocks/rails would have longer lifetime. Am I right about that?
    Maybe. If you get crap in the bearings, in either case here, you can stop or retard bearing recirculation. This can result in the bearings skating on the rails instead of rolling. This can tear up the rail of any variant fairly quickly. So the first thing to realize is the bearing life depends upon sound maintenance. In a couple of locations we have to run linear bearing absolutely dry as out-gassing or contamination of anytype is not acceptable, even if they run relatively slow those bearings do no t last long. The second key is the the implementation has to avoid overloading the bearing. An overload profile bearing won't last any longer than any other overloaded bearing. Related, profile bearings are less forgiving of mis alignment of the rails and attached mechanical structures. This has a lot to do with stiffness or slop in the bearing but also due to the round rail being round allowing for rotation around the rod the bearing mounts on. In the end to really benefit from a profile linear rail system you have to achieve a higher degree of fit to avoid inducing stress on the bearings.

    In the end what I'd suggest is going to the manufactures web sites and downloading their engineering info. The manuals will go into depth describing whats specs the surfaces the rails mount on have to agree upon to give e a good level of performance. Basically the flatter the better.



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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    I think the major reason that the square type linear rail are stiffer than an equivalently sized round rail is that the balls in the round rail block are contacting the rail at a theoretically infinitesimally small area, whereas the linear rails have a C profile that the balls fit in that gives much more contact area.



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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Hi Skrubol

    I'm already designing my machine with square type guides and blocks. (thumbsup)
    Also something interesting (to me at least) that I found while looking at the datasheet of the guides/blocks, is that the roller type is even better. They have twice the life expectancy than the ball type.



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    We have a bench router we built at work that can cut steel however it’s not used for it at all. It also has ridiculous sized hgh20cc Y axis and 15mm X axis rails, has a 1” cast pallet table drilled for toe clamps and pins, 1” thick cast mic6 gantry, it also has round guides and hiwin guides doubled up on the gantry with two round in the front and the hiwins are upper back side and lower back side for rigidity only. You can use a 3 ft pry bar and not see any flex. Does it still deflect? I suppose if you tried running a hard deep cut being it has 3000rpm ac servos it’s torque is unseen for a machine it’s size but we can only cut aluminum, plastics and carbon typically running 100-150ipm and 400 rapids. It is silly fun for what it is. It’s a 20 x 40 table and cost the shop around $7000 to build. So if budget isn’t a big concern just consider your design through and if you really want to cut steel maybe consider an epoxy granite build?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan-Ivanov View Post
    Hi All

    I'd like to build a metalworking CNC router for materials such as: hard and mild steels, high-quality steels, stainless steels, and others of the sort. The easiest route for me is to build the machine out of bosch rexroth aluminum profiles, but I'm worried about flexing and vibrations.
    My question is: before I throw the effort to research and calculate the base, gantry etc..., is it at all possible to have a dissent metalworking CNC router built out of aluminum profiles?

    the work volume is 500x400x250mm, while the machine dimensions would be in order of 1500x1500x1500mm (large spacings between bearings to mitigate the moments created by the cutting action). I'll work steel plates no thicker than 15mm. I'll use end mills of 8mm max. I'll use 6.5kW spindle.
    4mm and 6mm end mills would be the typical tools, the 8mm and 10mm end mills would be for facing operations only, not deeper than 0.5-1mm.

    If I use beefy 80x80mm rexroth profiles and 80x160mm in more critical areas; If I maximize the distance between the linear bearings to 1.5 or even 2 times the z axis travel or more, and put intermediate bearings, or even additional rails/bearings per side would that mitigate the fact that I use aluminum profiles.
    I plan to build a really beefy base, gantry and plunger, with many cross beams and reinforcing beams where possible. My budget is quite large...
    Also I don't pursue fast and efficient process. Having the machine work for 6-8 hours on a piece is fine with me. (I mean the machine would not endure the thick chip load, professional machines usually do).

    I'm going to put two pre-loaded nuts per screw to get rid of back-lash, also tightened linear bearings, and pre-loaded cone-ball bearings for the screws.

    I also consider the possibility of building the machine out of reinforced foam-concrete. I heard it has great vibration dampening properties. But that is considerably more difficult option for me.

    Thanks a lot, in advance.




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    If you do want to use Aluminium Extrusion Profiles, Matara UK have a wide variety in stock: https://www.matara.com/product/alumi...inium-profile/



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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Whoops didn’t notice that this is an old thread! However I wonder what happened with this project.

    Last edited by wizard; 10-31-2019 at 10:21 AM. Reason: Did not notice the thread revival.


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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by wizard View Post
    Whoops didn’t notice that this is an old thread! However I wonder what happened with this project.
    It's active. I'm not sure if I've said this already, but I decided to upgrade my current router, rather than to build a new one. The project is ongoing and if you're interested I'm going to post updates here.
    I spent the entire last summer milling 1053 parts with the router before disassembling it completely. This summer I started reassembling it with the new parts. The base is ready, and I would've progressed much further if I hadn't encountered a setback, with mounting the X-axis rails. I planned on mounting them on 20mm aluminum plates which in turn are mounted to the rest of the structure. However since I can't machine those plates at the length they had to be, I decided to divide them into sections. So now each rail would span the length of, and lay upon four separate plates instead of one... Bad Idea! And I knew it, but I had no idea what else to do at the time. Also not knowing the extend of the "trap" I'm setting for myself, I thought that the minor differences in thickness between plates wouldn't be a big problem... Well it was. A big problem. Even though I used 25mm rails, tightening them to those plates warped the rails ever so slightly, so the bearings would tighten in certain sections. I tried many things to compensate but nothing worked.

    Long story short, my final solution to the problem was, to go through the pain of ordering the proper parts to be made for me by a third party. I wanted to avoid that because I knew how long it takes for them to complete a simple task (in my country). I spent a month to go through their procedure of ordering, and it took them two more months to actually manufacture the parts. That's a job for an afternoon... But what could I do, it's a big company. My order was way too small for them and thus it had a very low priority... (And that's the case with every company I have access to) Anyway in the mean time I started another project so even though the parts were ready a month ago, I could resume work just the last week. The summer was half lost but now I'm back actively working on the project...

    Thanks for the interest



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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by Uguessedit View Post
    So if budget isn’t a big concern just consider your design through and if you really want to cut steel maybe consider an epoxy granite build?
    Well I decided to go with extrudes filled with epoxygranite. also the structure is quite massive even though made of aluminum.
    I also reconsidered a bit the kinds of materials I'm going to work with the router. I'm going to focus on aluminum...



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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Hi Handle Wanker and Ivan - Yes HW the balls can rub on each other and cause extra friction as they roll counter directions good observation. But the contact is slow and there is a one ball gap in the system that allows a little freedom in their travel. A typical friction coefficient is 0.002 -0.003 so relatively tiny. One thing about square vs round rail not mentioned is that round rail cannot support a moment in its "roll" direction. Whereas square rails can support moments in all directions. This is the main and large difference between them neglecting the lesser load capacity of the round. This is due to two convex surfaces rolling against each other creating large hertzian stresses which fatigue the rail faster. In a square bearing track the ball is convex but the rail is concave which distributes hertzian stresses better allowing high per ball loadings and longer fatigue and static life. Just saw Skrubrol describe this....

    https://www.engineeringnotes.org/sol...ontact-stress/

    HW you can buy blocks with cages between the balls for silent running. I designed and built a patient lifter for a hospital and the rails where vertical. As the cars moved up and down they clicked as the balls entered and left the back race. I then upgraded them to caged for its silence....

    peter

    Ivan I think you can do better then T slots filled with stuff. T slots have thin unsupported edges for the rails to connect too and this is a severe weak link.... I think you can do better, happy to help.... The structural bits of a machine is its DNA and you can't change it, upgrade it or improve it. You must start with the best DNA possible.... std heavy square hollow aluminium extrusions (or steel) are far better then t slot and cost a lot less. You pay for convenience not performance with T slot.

    Last edited by peteeng; 11-20-2019 at 05:04 AM.


  14. #34

    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by peteeng View Post
    Hi Handle Wanker and Ivan - Yes HW the balls can rub on each other and cause extra friction as they roll counter directions good observation. But the contact is slow and there is a one ball gap in the system that allows a little freedom in their travel. A typical friction coefficient is 0.002 -0.003 so relatively tiny. One thing about square vs round rail not mentioned is that round rail cannot support a moment in its "roll" direction. Whereas square rails can support moments in all directions. This is the main and large difference between them neglecting the lesser load capacity of the round. This is due to two convex surfaces rolling against each other creating large hertzian stresses which fatigue the rail faster. In a square bearing track the ball is convex but the rail is concave which distributes hertzian stresses better allowing high per ball loadings and longer fatigue and static life. Just saw Skrubrol describe this....

    https://www.engineeringnotes.org/sol...ontact-stress/

    HW you can buy blocks with cages between the balls for silent running. I designed and built a patient lifter for a hospital and the rails where vertical. As the cars moved up and down they clicked as the balls entered and left the back race. I then upgraded them to caged for its silence....

    peter

    Ivan I think you can do better then T slots filled with stuff. T slots have thin unsupported edges for the rails to connect too and this is a severe weak link.... I think you can do better, happy to help.... The structural bits of a machine is its DNA and you can't change it, upgrade it or improve it. You must start with the best DNA possible.... std heavy square hollow aluminium extrusions (or steel) are far better then t slot and cost a lot less. You pay for convenience not performance with T slot.
    for 3meterx2meter router which aluminum extrusion size /thickness you suggest to get if budget aint problem



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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by teamloks1 View Post
    for 3meterx2meter router which aluminum extrusion size /thickness you suggest to get if budget aint problem
    There is not any that is suitable for a Router frame of that size, it would need a lot of support and the cost would be more than steel frame, there are some that use extrusions but I don't think it is suitable for a large machine

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    ….and the bigger you go the harder it is to get anything flat, square, level and parallel to one another.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Hi Teamloks - You say budget is not a problem. As others say a 2m span is a big machine. Plus you don't say what you you want to cut. So I'll take a punt. 250x250x6 or 12mm. You will need to machine it flat depending on the tolerance you are aiming at so 12mm with a skim. These are available in australia on special order. This would weigh about 70kg and you would have to order 250kg to get it. I'd order it in an architectural alloy and specify half commercial tolerance. This way the stretchers can straighten it. If you get structural alloy in this size its very strong and the production stretchers may not be able to straighten it. The order would cost about $10/kg so 250kg would be $2500AUD. However if you want aluminium which is a good choice for less gantry weight I would make the gantry from thick plate and edge bolt it together. I'd bond the joints with epoxy. Then have it machined for the rails. Would cost a lot less.

    If I where to make a gantry like this I'd use an aluminium front plate of 12 or 16mm thick. I'd make a fibre glass or carbon fibre top hat that bolted and bonded to the back of it. Then I'd have the front face machined. This would be very light and very stiff. It is worthwhile doing the numbers against a steel beam as steel is available in much bigger sizes. But usually you can design an aluminium section to be lighter than a steel section at same rigidity and then its usual to design a carbon fibre one lighter than aluminium (budget not an issue case). Fortunately where I live in Oz all of this is possible and close by and I deal with these sort of things often...Cheers Peter

    If you get a thin steel section then you have to weld a thick bit to the front to take the rails and threads. Then you have to stress relieve and machine. Then have to paint it. I dislike painting as it costs and it interferes with fits. So I'd stay with the aluminium. I'd prefer to go composite all the way but machinists don't like machining it, so that's why a metal front plate is good. If I had an order for a few I'd get an aluminium tool machined flat so the composite gantry would be moulded flat. Then I have only paid for the machining once. So many things to think through.... pick your poison (carefully)

    If its a "hobby" machine I'd forget about final machining and put up with the section tolerance. I'd drill the clearance holes through the section but not thread them. I'd make a backing plate from steel with the correct pitch and thread for the rails. This would slip inside the tube and you'd pick up the threads and nip up. Set up one side as the master and you may have to shim or scrape a little. Then set the master with epoxy grout. Then work on the secondary rail same. But this gantry has to integrate with columns or high rails so then the ends have to be figured. Usually takes a few design rounds to get things right...

    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by peteeng; 11-20-2019 at 04:48 PM.


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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Hi Ivan - Getting back to your original spec for the "Mill" 500x400x250. This is not particularly big. But you have a "router" that handles aluminium so design all parts in billet aluminium. Even the gantry could be billet aluminium. They would bolt together just like automotive engine/gearbox parts. Would be a great machine. Martec has a thread like this. Cheers Peter

    edit - or make moulds and cast Epoxy Alumina parts. Moulds can be cut in plastic or wood. Multi part moulds not a problem. Design exactly what you want then cast it. Ideal go for it.

    As an aside - I have been speaking to our local stonemason, he has a factory next to the local cemetery. He has a large CNC saw that cuts granite and and large CNC mill/drill for engraving stone and finishing etc, plus a polisher and lapper. He buys 20mm thick slabs of granite and engineered stone (3mx1.5m so good for gantries I expect). Plus the usual large blocks of granite for headstones. So far seems to be cheaper then aluminium if you pick a non appearance chunk. Maybe can make granite bits for machines?? Do you have a stonemason handy? Granite is same stiffness as aluminium and very damp as the FG discussers all know. Peter

    He gave me a couple of offcuts to play with., I want to make a big flat table to cast fibreglass, tetrium and carbon parts on. So far seems ideal. My main concern is heat spalling the granite on thick casts. I find out next week....

    Last edited by peteeng; 11-21-2019 at 05:11 AM.


  19. #39

    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    hi peter i already ask from my local distributor they only have biggest 200*200*13mm which cost 136usd per meter and 100*100*10mm 55 usd per meter is it good price you think?



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    Default Re: Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles

    Quote Originally Posted by teamloks1 View Post
    hi peter i already ask from my local distributor they only have biggest 200*200*13mm which cost 136usd per meter and 100*100*10mm 55 usd per meter is it good price you think?
    Your best bet is to convert the cost to a dollar per pound number. Obviously in a metric country that wouldn’t be pounds (in most cases). You can then compare that number to the going rates for the metal in question.



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Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles.

Is it at all possible to build a metalworking CNC router out of aluminum profiles.